Weighty Words

[Yodas_Prodigy]

We often approach scripture with presuppositions. Some say, “God is love.” So, “he must want everyone to be saved.” Others will say, “God is holy, just, merciful, and gracious too. He chooses his elect and saves them and leaves the rest to what their nature desire”. Then, we get to hear, “That’s not fair!” Not to be out done, the other side will say, “God is just or gracious. He is not unjust (unfair).”

Words carry weight. Some words carry much more weight than other words. Let me give an example. Romans 8,

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

The above passage has lots of weighty words. Let's look.

You are able to see there are some powerful words here – ALL, LOVE GOD, CALLED, HE FOREKNEW, HE PREDESTINED, CONFORMED, FIRSTBORN, HE PREDESTINED, HE CALLED, HE JUSTIFIED, HE GLORIFIED… Cap’s for EMPHASIS

When we read the passage, there are two words that have to be read into the context. One carries lots of weight. The other does not. One makes logical sense. The other does not. Let’s give it a try.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to [ALL or SOME] those who love God, to [ALL or SOME] those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom [ALL or SOME] He foreknew, He also predestined [ALL or SOME] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom [ALL or SOME] He predestined, these [ALL or SOME] He also called; [ALL or SOME] whom He called, these [ALL or SOME] He also justified; and whom [ALL or SOME] He justified, these [ALL or SOME] He also glorified.

It is my contention that in each bracket, the word ALL makes the best sense. If you read SOME into each instance, you will be leaving behind Godly people to a Christ-less eternity.

Take a read:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to [SOME] those who love God, to [SOME] those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom [SOME] He foreknew, He also predestined [SOME] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom [SOME] He predestined, these [SOME] He also called; [SOME] whom He called, these [SOME] He also justified; and whom [SOME] He justified, these [SOME] He also glorified.

Now, let’s look at the verses with ALL:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to [ALL] those who love God, to [ALL] those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom [ALL] He foreknew, He also predestined [ALL] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom [ALL] He predestined, these [ALL] He also called; [ALL] whom He called, these [ALL] He also justified; and whom [ALL] He justified, these [ALL] He also glorified.

Now, to the climax of this discussion… This passage, with the word “ALL”, carries much weight for the view that is known as the Augustinian, Reformed, Calvinist view… The word ALL is better than SOME and carries tremendous weight. It is my humble opinion that this Golden Chain of Salvation trumps any and all arguments that support Arminianism and those positions that oppose preservation of the saints.

 

[TibiasDad]

Now, to the climax of this discussion… This passage, with the word “ALL”, carries much weight for the view that is known as the Augustinian, Reformed, Calvinist view… The word ALL is better than SOME and carries tremendous weight. It is my humble opinion that this Golden Chain of Salvation trumps any and all arguments that support Arminianism and those positions that oppose preservation of the saints.

It's funny, that as I was reading you OP, I actually thought that you were positing an Arminian argument. (And this despite the assumption that you were a Calvinist.)

Rom 8:28-29 are my cornerstone verses, and I completely agree that "all" is the only way the verse can be read, and frankly, I have never heard it suggested otherwise, so I don't know why you're making such an assertion, but no Arminian that I've ever read or heard has ever said anything like this.

Doug

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

It's funny, that as I was reading you OP, I actually thought that you were positing an Arminian argument. (And this despite the assumption that you were a Calvinist.)

Rom 8:28-29 are my cornerstone verses, and I completely agree that "all" is the only way the verse can be read, and frankly, I have never heard it suggested otherwise, so I don't know why you're making such an assertion, but no Arminian that I've ever read or heard has ever said anything like this.

Doug

Honestly, I have never heard an Arminian use SOME either. It is my opinion that they don't consider the ramifications of ALL... That is why I take the time to offer the two choices... My obvious goal is to show that the passage leads to a Reformed view of soteriology... It is a powerful passage for that view.

 

[TibiasDad]

Honestly, I have never heard an Arminian use SOME either. It is my opinion that they don't consider the ramifications of ALL... That is why I take the time to offer the two choices... My obvious goal is to show that the passage leads to a Reformed view of soteriology... It is a powerful passage for that view.

That is an assumption that you show no evidence for! Why would you assume an Arminian issue with "all" if you "have never heard an Arminian use some"? (Incidentally, italics is the proper way to emphasize particular words or phrases. Using bold and/or color, though less proper stylistically, are also commonly used methods.)

Doug

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

That is an assumption that you show no evidence for! Why would you assume an Arminian issue with "all" if you "have never heard an Arminian use some"? (Incidentally, italics is the proper way to emphasize particular words or phrases. Using bold and/or color, though less proper stylistically, are also commonly used methods.)

Doug

Let's take a look

28 And we know that all things work together for good to [ALL] those who love God, to [ALL] those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom [ALL] He foreknew, He also predestined [ALL] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom [ALL] He predestined, these [ALL] He also called; [ALL] whom He called, these [ALL] He also justified; and whom [ALL] He justified, these [ALL] He also glorified.

First, it speaks of called. Many of my Arminian friends tell me that all are called...
My Arminian friends tell me that all are Foreknew (for their good or their evil).
My Arminian friends have a problem with Predestination unless they redefine it to their presuppositions.
My Arminian friends will have a problem with all being glorified since most do not believe in the security of the believer...
This could lead to some form of Universalism if taken to its logical end...

Now, after being cornered, my Arminian friends will quote, "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God". The problem with that is that no one loves God. No one seeks after him...

Romans 3

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Are all things good?

After the Fall of Adam, no...

 

[TibiasDad]

Let's take a look

28 And we know that all things work together for good to [ALL] those who love God, to [ALL] those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom [ALL] He foreknew, He also predestined [ALL] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom [ALL] He predestined, these [ALL] He also called; [ALL] whom He called, these [ALL] He also justified; and whom [ALL] He justified, these [ALL] He also glorified.

First, it speaks of called. Many of my Arminian friends tell me that all are called...
My Arminian friends tell me that all are Foreknew (for their good or their evil).
My Arminian friends have a problem with Predestination unless they redefine it to their presuppositions.
My Arminian friends will have a problem with all being glorified since most do not believe in the security of the believer...
This could lead to some form of Universalism if taken to its logical end...

Now, after being cornered, my Arminian friends will quote, "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God". The problem with that is that no one loves God. No one seeks after him...

Romans 3

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

My premise is based on your assertion that you "never heard an Arminian use SOME" instead of all, and yet your entire premise in the OP is based on the assumption that Arminians do say "some"! Moreover, you have shifted the argument to what your Arminian friends have told you, which is hearsay evidence without direct and verifiable statements of their actual words.

Lastly, "being glorified" has no direct bearing on whether perseverance of the saints is a valid doctrine. I do not believe in POS or ES, yet I believe that in the end all believers are glorified.


Doug

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

My premise is based on your assertion that you "never heard an Arminian use SOME" instead of all, and yet your entire premise in the OP is based on the assumption that Arminians do say "some"! Moreover, you have shifted the argument to what your Arminian friends have told you, which is hearsay evidence without direct and verifiable statements of their actual words.

Lastly, "being glorified" has no direct bearing on whether perseverance of the saints is a valid doctrine. I do not believe in POS or ES, yet I believe that in the end all believers are glorified.

Doug

TYFYT's