We're Baaack!

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Because I'm not trying to win an argument. I'm simply presenting the information, and you guys have to decide whether you actually want to know the truth, or keep stumbling all over yourselves showing us how little you actually know.

As for understanding why you believe I get nowhere....
Further evidence you're really not paying attention.

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:



β€œI will destroy the wisdom of the wise,

And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”




20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

I know exactly why I am perceived as getting nowhere.
Do you know why you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about?
You really don't. Care to guess why? I know why.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I don't misrepresent you.
of course not. Because if you actually admitted that, you would be aware.

But since you're not aware, you refuse to acknowledge the truth that you're dead in your sin and trespass and in need of a savior who is the only one who possesses what you are in need of.

It is a false claim, and not merely an alternate perspective, when you claim people have said things that they've never really said.
Then it doesn't actually matter what the truth is does it.

Just as long as you believe that you alone possess truth, you'll be excused from culpability for the real truth.

A lot of words where you again say nothing whatsoever.
Well, I guess that would indeed explain why you didn't say anything of value that added to the op.

Have a great day.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
of course not. Because if you actually admitted that, you would be aware.

But since you're not aware, you refuse to acknowledge the truth that you're dead in your sin and trespass and in need of a savior who is the only one who possesses what you are in need of.


Then it doesn't actually matter what the truth is does it.

Just as long as you believe that you alone possess truth, you'll be excused from culpability for the real truth.


Well, I guess that would indeed explain why you didn't say anything of value that added to the op.

Have a great day.
You of all people have no right to talk about truth, Steve

It has been demonstrated to you over and over that God falls short of your own moral standard and yet you continue to actively suppress this knowledge in favor of kowtowing to a being that you know to be immoral

This is not being truthful, Steve
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Oh pray do tell....
I'm all eyes.
Here's what you said before.... "Because I'm not trying to win an argument. I'm simply presenting the information, and you guys have to decide whether you actually want to know the truth, or keep stumbling all over yourselves showing us how little you actually know."

We don't just take your word for it and can see reasons for doubt about your claims, so we question so we can decide whether you have the truth or not. For example, the heart of your belief is a subjective, personal experience that you "invite" us to find. One problem with this is that adherents to other Gods have the same sort of experience but ascribe them to their God as you ascribe yours to your God. This alone is enough to cast doubt on said subjective experience leading anyone to a real God.

But when challenged on this point and others, or you're asked for clarification you dodge and become very unreasonable. When challenged about articles you reference you dodge and become very unreasonable. This get's us nowhere, and you don't seem to understand how unreasonable you're being.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
You of all people have no right to talk about truth, Steve
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Right....
Well, thankfully, I'm not depending on you, your views, or any other atheists on earth to know what I am or am not allowed to talk about, think, or believe.
Thank you for your insightless comment though. It is deeply appreciated.

It has been demonstrated to you over and over that God falls short of your own moral standard and yet you continue to actively suppress this knowledge in favor of kowtowing to a being that you know to be immoral
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It sure is nice to see such ignorance so clearly on display.
No. It hasn't been demonstrated that God has fallen short of my morality.

As his morality exceeds the sum total of all the morality of the entire human race from Adam down to the last human born at some as yet unknown future, by parsecs, I find myself wondering why you view your opinions as being sufficient to comprehend what you're claiming.
But it's definitely worth a great laugh.
Thank you. I enjoyed reading your statement.


This is not being truthful, Steve

You're not being truthful, correct.
Thank you for admitting this.
It's a start to getting started in the path of repentance towards God and faith in Jesus.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
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Right....
Well, thankfully, I'm not depending on you, your views, or any other atheists on earth to know what I am or am not allowed to talk about, think, or believe.
Thank you for your insightless comment though. It is deeply appreciated.


πŸ€£πŸ€£πŸ€£πŸ€£πŸ˜ŽπŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ€£πŸ€£πŸ€£πŸ€£πŸ™„πŸ˜±πŸ˜Ž
It sure is nice to see such ignorance so clearly on display.
No. It hasn't been demonstrated that God has fallen short of my morality.

As his morality exceeds the sum total of all the morality of the entire human race from Adam down to the last human born at some as yet unknown future, by parsecs, I find myself wondering why you view your opinions as being sufficient to comprehend what you're claiming.
But it's definitely worth a great laugh.
Thank you. I enjoyed reading your statement.




You're not being truthful, correct.
Thank you for admitting this.
It's a start to getting started in the path of repentance towards God and faith in Jesus.
This reply illustrates why you get nowhere. You don't show why the post it replies to is wrong, it just says stuff with no justification.

This all you ever do.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Here's what you said before.... "Because I'm not trying to win an argument. I'm simply presenting the information, and you guys have to decide whether you actually want to know the truth, or keep stumbling all over yourselves showing us how little you actually know."
Yep. That is what I said.

We don't just take your word for it and can see reasons for doubt about your claims, so we question so we can decide whether you have the truth or not.
Uh.....
Why is this my problem?
You're apparently not paying attention to what I said.
It was really clear.

I'm simply presenting the information, and you guys have to decide whether you actually want to know the truth, or keep stumbling all over yourselves showing us how little you actually know.

What part of this did you not understand?


For example, the heart of your belief is a subjective, personal experience that you "invite" us to find. One problem with this is that adherents to other Gods have the same sort of experience but ascribe them to their God as you ascribe yours to your God. This alone is enough to cast doubt on said subjective experience leading anyone to a real God.
It's your choice.
You need my experience and the experience of hundreds of millions of others throughout history to be conflated with the truth that YHVH, through Jesus Christ is real, knowable and experientiable.
This is an incredibly simple issue.

We who follow Jesus have based our experiences with God and Jesus on the truthfulness and reality of their existence.

This is something everyone who comes to Jesus can know for themselves.

Their reality, their truthfulness, veracity, are all completely independent of whether we believe him or not.
Their reality does not require our beliefs to be real.

Our experience with Jesus requires our belief to be experienced.

Our belief is required for us to benefit from their goodness, grace, and truth.


But when challenged on this point and others, or you're asked for clarification you dodge and become very unreasonable. When challenged about articles you reference you dodge and become very unreasonable. This get's us nowhere, and you don't seem to understand how unreasonable you're being.

It's been explained to you hundreds, if not several thousand times over the years.
You've been on this forum in its various forms since at least 2009. As I didn't show up until November 2012, I have no idea if there were previous versions that you had been involved in.

This means that you have heard the gospel almost daily for well over a decade. Yet you have repeatedly refused to engage God himself, on his terms, and have continued to argue with complete and total strangers about something that you have absolutely no understanding whatsoever with.

There comes a point where you really need to sh88 or get off the pot.

Regardless of how unreasonable you view me to be, the gospel, the means by which God has explicitly stated he will make himself knowable to us....
They have not changed since their inception, dating back millennia ago.
And they're not going to change.
For you, for me, or for any other person.

Billy Graham had to come to Jesus the same way I did.
Charles Spurgeon had to come to Jesus the same way I did.
Gallileo, Newton, Kepler, Copernicus, Charlemagne, Augustin, etc.....

As have all the people dating all the way back to the resurrection of Jesus.

So.... complain all you want.
You're on the outside looking in, without any understanding.

We're on the inside, reaching out our hands to you, asking you to come to Jesus. Just come.

Your complaint is invalid and it is only excluding you from experiencing the grace and truth of Jesus.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Yep. That is what I said.


Uh.....
Why is this my problem?
You're apparently not paying attention to what I said.
It was really clear.

I'm simply presenting the information, and you guys have to decide whether you actually want to know the truth, or keep stumbling all over yourselves showing us how little you actually know.

What part of this did you not understand?



It's your choice.
You need my experience and the experience of hundreds of millions of others throughout history to be conflated with the truth that YHVH, through Jesus Christ is real, knowable and experientiable.
This is an incredibly simple issue.

We who follow Jesus have based our experiences with God and Jesus on the truthfulness and reality of their existence.

This is something everyone who comes to Jesus can know for themselves.

Their reality, their truthfulness, veracity, are all completely independent of whether we believe him or not.
Their reality does not require our beliefs to be real.

Our experience with Jesus requires our belief to be experienced.

Our belief is required for us to benefit from their goodness, grace, and truth.




It's been explained to you hundreds, if not several thousand times over the years.
You've been on this forum in its various forms since at least 2009. As I didn't show up until November 2012, I have no idea if there were previous versions that you had been involved in.

This means that you have heard the gospel almost daily for well over a decade. Yet you have repeatedly refused to engage God himself, on his terms, and have continued to argue with complete and total strangers about something that you have absolutely no understanding whatsoever with.

There comes a point where you really need to sh88 or get off the pot.

Regardless of how unreasonable you view me to be, the gospel, the means by which God has explicitly stated he will make himself knowable to us....
They have not changed since their inception, dating back millennia ago.
And they're not going to change.
For you, for me, or for any other person.

Billy Graham had to come to Jesus the same way I did.
Charles Spurgeon had to come to Jesus the same way I did.
Gallileo, Newton, Kepler, Copernicus, Charlemagne, Augustin, etc.....

As have all the people dating all the way back to the resurrection of Jesus.

So.... complain all you want.
You're on the outside looking in, without any understanding.

We're on the inside, reaching out our hands to you, asking you to come to Jesus. Just come.

Your complaint is invalid and it is only excluding you from experiencing the grace and truth of Jesus.
Yeah, you're still not getting it.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
This reply illustrates why you get nowhere. You don't show why the post it replies to is wrong, it just says stuff with no justification.
That's what happens when you keep arguing about something that is not an argument you're going to be able to win.

I've repeatedly explained this hundreds of times before.
 

e v e

Super Member
Good to see CARM up and running again.

Some of it can be historically verified, but not all, and it is the parts that cannot hat are most important. For example, in the NT we can verify that Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, but not the resurrection. Clearly the important claim is the latter.
all of what He says in scripture can be verified if every source is allowed, which should be of course, since He does discuss the enemy realm. Many references to the enemy realm can be verified in the hieroglyphs and rg veda, where because of their own pride and ego, the enemy (fallen angels) admitted their crimes against eden and God.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Yeah, you're still not getting it.
Then you're doing a piss-poor job of explaining it.

Here's a novel idea for you.

I have gotten it, considered it, and then summarily dismissed it because it was an invalid basis upon which you're trying to win an unwinnable argument.
 

e v e

Super Member
It is something that has been debated a huge amount here. If it was historically verified, there would be no debate.


To imagine the resurrection is better verified than, say WW2, is ludicrous, and really only serves to undermine your own credibility.


I only had a quick look, but I am familiar with Habermas' "Minimal Facts" theory, and it looks like that is, at least to some degree, a development of his thesis. His claim of the resurrection is based primarily on the Empty Tomb (besides other less contentious claims). What is his evidence for the Empty Tomb? The Bible said there was an empty tomb! I appreciate it is a little more nuanced than that, but to consider that to be "verified history" is setting the bar very low indeed.


It is not really about the resurrection, but about what scholars believe. That is important because the evidence Habermas uses is quite different.

If the article concluded that all (or virtually all) scholars believe the resurrection happened, that would support your point, but Habermas seems to only consider Christian scholars. Towards the end of page 80 he notes the position of what he calls "skeptical schlars", naming Norman Perrin and Helmut Koester. Koester was a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. I am not sure about Perrin, but I get the impression he too was a Christian. To be sure, both had unorthodox views that perhaps differed from Habermas, but they both believed in the resurrection.

The only conclusion is that Habermas' paper is a review of Christian scholass, ranging from the liberal, such as Perrin and Koester, to the conservative. And surprise, surprise! They all think the resurrection actually happened.


I never said that. I said it had not been verified.


You are the one claiming it was verified. The burden of proof is on you to support the claim.
habermas is a mess. didnt even bother to teach his drivel to my students at university.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
πŸ€”πŸ˜πŸ˜πŸ€¨πŸ€”πŸ™„πŸ€£
Right....
Well, thankfully, I'm not depending on you, your views, or any other atheists on earth to know what I am or am not allowed to talk about, think, or believe.
Thank you for your insightless comment though. It is deeply appreciated.


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It sure is nice to see such ignorance so clearly on display.
No. It hasn't been demonstrated that God has fallen short of my morality.

As his morality exceeds the sum total of all the morality of the entire human race from Adam down to the last human born at some as yet unknown future, by parsecs, I find myself wondering why you view your opinions as being sufficient to comprehend what you're claiming.
But it's definitely worth a great laugh.
Thank you. I enjoyed reading your statement.




You're not being truthful, correct.
Thank you for admitting this.
It's a start to getting started in the path of repentance towards God and faith in Jesus.
I never said that you must rely upon my views, Steve
Once again, you are misrepresenting me

What I am saying is that you must rely upon your own views - just as every other person on earth must do for themselves

Speaking of your views - yes, Steve, it HAS been demonstrated that God fails to meet your moral standard

To wit:

God drowned babies
You, though, would never drown a baby

God said that it's OK for one human being to own another human being as a piece of property
You, though, would never support slavery

God commanded His followers to kill unbelievers
You, though, would never murder or support the murder of those that do not believe in your god

God holds the entire human race accountable for the actions of the 1st two human beings
You, though, would never hold an innocent person accountable for the actions of a guilty person

God promises to burn and torture forever those that do not recognize Him
You, though, would never dream of punishing someone for not recognizing you - much less doing so eternally

No, Steve, God's morality DOES NOT exceed "the sum total of all the morality of the entire human race"
Not even close
In fact, God's morality falls far short of Steve's morality alone

MY opinion?
No, Steve - it's OUR opinion
It's the opinion of humanity, itself

Own your opinion, Steve
Grow up and take responsibility for yourself
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I never said that you must rely upon my views, Steve
Once again, you are misrepresenting me

What I am saying is that you must rely upon your own views - just as every other person on earth must do for themselves

Speaking of your views - yes, Steve, it HAS been demonstrated that God fails to meet your moral standard

To wit:

God drowned babies
You, though, would never drown a baby

God said that it's OK for one human being to own another human being as a piece of property
You, though, would never support slavery

God commanded His followers to kill unbelievers
You, though, would never murder or support the murder of those that do not believe in your god

God holds the entire human race accountable for the actions of the 1st two human beings
You, though, would never hold an innocent person accountable for the actions of a guilty person

God promises to burn and torture forever those that do not recognize Him
You, though, would never dream of punishing someone for not recognizing you - much less doing so eternally

No, Steve, God's morality DOES NOT exceed "the sum total of all the morality of the entire human race"
Not even close
In fact, God's morality falls far short of Steve's morality alone

MY opinion?
No, Steve - it's OUR opinion
It's the opinion of humanity, itself

Own your opinion, Steve
Grow up and take responsibility for yourself
You're misrepresenting me, and therefore, misrepresenting your opinion on what God has explicitly stated.
Since however you actually think you're justified in your ignorance, I'd say that you have screwed yourself into an eternity of misery.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
You're misrepresenting me, and therefore, misrepresenting your opinion on what God has explicitly stated.
Since however you actually think you're justified in your ignorance, I'd say that you have screwed yourself into an eternity of misery.
Yet another typical reply from Steve where everything gets asserted, and nothing is actually explained. It also misrepresents who he's replying to.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
You're misrepresenting me, and therefore, misrepresenting your opinion on what God has explicitly stated.
Since however you actually think you're justified in your ignorance, I'd say that you have screwed yourself into an eternity of misery.
Would you drown a baby?
Yes or no, Steve

Do you think it's OK for a human being to own another human being as a piece of property?
Yes or no, Steve

Do you think I should be put to death for not believing in your god?
Yes or no, Steve

Would you hold someone responsible for somebody else's actions?
Yes or no, Steve

Would you eternally punish your own flesh and blood for truly and sincerely believing your actions to be immoral?
Yes or no, Steve

Answer YES to all of the above OR admit that I have NOT misrepresented you
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
of course not. Because if you actually admitted that, you would be aware.
I can't become aware of something that isn't true. If you think I've misrepresented you in some way, then give an example.

But since you're not aware, you refuse to acknowledge the truth that you're dead in your sin and trespass and in need of a savior who is the only one who possesses what you are in need of.
Off-topic preaching.

Then it doesn't actually matter what the truth is does it.
Of course the truth matters. That's why you should be more truthful when making claims about what others have said to you.

Just as long as you believe that you alone possess truth, you'll be excused from culpability for the real truth.
I don't believe that. You're strawmanning yet again.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Yet another typical reply from Steve where everything gets asserted, and nothing is actually explained. It also misrepresents who he's replying to.
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As long as you're not willing to recognize your own beliefs as being invalid, and based on ignorance of what Jesus is offering, such statements simply demonstrate that you really have no idea what you're talking about.

It's written in Proverbs 3 that we're not to lean on our own understanding, but to trust in YHVH with all our heart.

Furthermore, Jesus was quite clear that unless we deny ourselves and pick up our cross, we cannot be his disciple.

So, as you're continuing to choose your own understanding, and refuse to deny yourself, and refuse to pick up your cross, you really don't grasp what truth is, or how to live.
 
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