Westminster Confession: "of none"

Y

Yahchristian

Member
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
The doctrine as believed by the reformed community is specified in the Westminster confession: "In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding: the Son is eternally begotten of the Father: the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son." This is what I believe. The RCC agrees with this assessment.
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TRINITARIANS...

1.) In your confession, what does the phrase "of none" mean?

2.) Is God the Son "of none"?

3.) Is God the Holy Ghost "of none"?

P.S.

Here is a concise statement of what I believe...
The spirit Yahweh is the only one who is eternal. Yahweh is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. Yahweh in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, Yahweh in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal Yahweh is called God the Father.

And here is a more detailed overview...
(Note: I agree with the view of Melito, Bishop of Sardis around AD 160-180. The following is how I word it.)
For this creation, Yahweh God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how Yahweh would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent Yahweh (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Son of God) with a glorious human body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Son of God. But whereas Yahweh created a human spirit and soul for each of us, Yahweh himself became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
 
Y

Yahchristian

Member
Yahchristian said:
1.) In your confession, what does the phrase "of none" mean?

2.) Is God the Son "of none"?

3.) Is God the Holy Ghost "of none"?
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One TRINITARIAN posted the Doctrine of the Trinity contained in the Westminster Confession.

Another TRINITARIAN started a thread titled "The doctrine of the Holy trinity is clear in Scripture..."

So TRINITARIANS...

If the doctrine of the Trinity is so clear in Scripture...

So that you can have a small 55 word confession describe it...

Why hasn't any Trinitarian been able to answer the questions.
 
Y

Yahchristian

Member
Yahchristian said:
1.) In your confession, what does the phrase "of none" mean?

2.) Is God the Son "of none"?

3.) Is God the Holy Ghost "of none"?
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Is there ANY Trinitarian who can answer my questions.

Here is the Westminster Confession on the Trinity…
In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.

Here is how I see the distinctions between the Father, the Son, and the Spirit...
GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

P.S. Here is how I came to my stataement...
GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

As is the convention of English Bibles, I use the word GOD (with all caps) to signify that the underlying Hebrew word is YHWH (a proper name) rather than Elohim (a title).
Exodus 23:17 ESV… Three times in the year shall all your males appear before the Lord GOD.
GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

John 4:24 ESV… God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

Deuteronomy 33:27… The eternal God is your dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms. And he thrust out the enemy before you and said, ‘Destroy.’
Isaiah 37:16 ESV… “O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth.
GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

Genesis 1:2 ESV… The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

1 Timothy 3:16 ESV… Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.
GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

Genesis 1:2 ESV… The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

Luke 1:35 ESV… And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.
GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

1 Corinthians 8:6 ESV… yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
 
Y

Yahchristian

Member
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
In response to your various questions, I find them for the most part pointless. You seem to be nitpicking at word useage while not trying to understand what is being said? Personally, I don't want to go round and round on such obfuscating the primary discussion.
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But as YOU have said to others...

DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
To choose to not respond to the reasoning I presented tells any honest reader that you don't have a meaningful reply, i.e. you know your wrong but your throwing out this smoke screen to hide your retreat. Wow, simply wow.
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I would hope SOME Trinitarians COULD answer the questions concerning the Trinitarian confession!
 
J

johnny guitar

Active member
Yahchristian said:
Is there ANY Trinitarian who can answer my questions.

Here is the Westminster Confession on the Trinity…
In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.

Here is how I see the distinctions between the Father, the Son, and the Spirit...
GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

P.S. Here is how I came to my stataement...
GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

As is the convention of English Bibles, I use the word GOD (with all caps) to signify that the underlying Hebrew word is YHWH (a proper name) rather than Elohim (a title).
Exodus 23:17 ESV… Three times in the year shall all your males appear before the Lord GOD.
GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

John 4:24 ESV… God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

Deuteronomy 33:27… The eternal God is your dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms. And he thrust out the enemy before you and said, ‘Destroy.’
Isaiah 37:16 ESV… “O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth.
GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

Genesis 1:2 ESV… The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

1 Timothy 3:16 ESV… Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.
GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

Genesis 1:2 ESV… The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

Luke 1:35 ESV… And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.
GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

1 Corinthians 8:6 ESV… yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
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Of none=UNBEGOTTEN.
Next question.......................
 
Y

Yahchristian

Member
johnny guitar said:
Of none=UNBEGOTTEN.
Next question.......................
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Thank you for answering the first question. Now can you answer the other two...

1.) In your confession, what does the phrase "of none" mean? UNBEGOTTEN

2.) Is God the Son "of none"?

3.) Is God the Holy Ghost "of none"?

Notice that the Westminster Confession only says the Father is "of none" (which you say means "unbegotten").

Here is the Westminster Confession on the Trinity…
In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.
 
J

johnny guitar

Active member
Yahchristian said:
Thank you for answering the first question. Now can you answer the other two...

1.) In your confession, what does the phrase "of none" mean? UNBEGOTTEN

2.) Is God the Son "of none"?

3.) Is God the Holy Ghost "of none"?

Notice that the Westminster Confession only says the Father is "of none" (which you say means "unbegotten").

Here is the Westminster Confession on the Trinity…
In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.
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No.
No.
Next question................
 
Y

Yahchristian

Member
OldShepherd

OldShepherd

Active member
Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, [a.d. 153-193-217.] dialogue with Trypho, a Jew.​
Chap. CXXVIII. — The Word Is Sent Not as an Inanimate Power, but as a Person Begotten of the Father’s Substance.
“And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said.” … I know that some wish to anticipate these remarks, and to say that the power sent from the Father of all which appeared to Moses, or to Abraham, or to Jacob, is called an Angel because He came to men (for by Him the commands of the Father have been proclaimed to men); is called Glory, because He appears in a vision sometimes that cannot be borne; is called a Man, and a human being, because He appears strayed in such forms as the Father pleases; and they call Him the Word, because He carries tidings from the Father to men: but maintain that this power is indivisible and inseparable from the Father, just as they say that the light of the sun on earth is indivisible and inseparable from the sun in the heavens; as when it sinks, the light sinks along with it; so the Father, when He chooses, say they, causes His power to spring forth, and when He chooses, He makes it return to Himself. …

I have discussed briefly in what has gone before; when I asserted that this power was begotten from the Father, by His power and will, but not by abscission, [cutting off] as if the essence of the Father were divided; as all other things partitioned and divided are not the same after as before they were divided: and, for the sake of example, I took the case of fires kindled from a fire, which we see to be distinct from it, and yet that from which many can be kindled is by no means made less, but remains the same.
 
J

johnny guitar

Active member
Yahchristian said:
Since YOU say God the Holy Ghost is NOT "of none"...

And YOU say "of none" means "unbegotten"...

That would mean God the Holy Ghost is BEGOTTEN (not unbegotten).

Right?

Or would you like to change your answer to the third question...

3.) Is God the Holy Ghost "of none"?
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Strawmen question.
The Holy Spirit eternally PROCEEDS from Father and Son.
Unbegotten and Begotten refers to an eternal relationship between Father and Son.
BTW how about using the title Holy Spirit instead of Holy Ghost???
You sound too ancient.
 
Y

Yahchristian

Member
johnny guitar said:
BTW how about using the title Holy Spirit instead of Holy Ghost???
You sound too ancient.
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When I ask TRINITARIANS questions concerning a TRINITARIAN confession I have to use THEIR terms.

But I agree with you that the wording of the TRINITARIAN confession "sounds too ancient" !!!
 
Y

Yahchristian

Member
johnny guitar said:
Then I suggest you use the title Holy Spirit as ALL Trinitarians do TODAY.
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That is NOT true, but I share your dislike for the term "Holy Ghost" !!!

That is why I asked...

WHY do TRINITARIANS use the term "Holy GHOST" rather than "Holy SPIRIT"?

The Protestant TRINITARIAN Westminster Confession TODAY still uses the term "Holy GHOST" !!!

And the TRINITARIAN Catholic Encyclopedia has an entry for "Holy Ghost" but NOT one for "Holy Spirit" !!!

So you shouldn't be getting upset with me, you should be getting upset with your fellow TRINITARIANS. :)
 
Y

Yahchristian

Member
johnny guitar said:
Confessions were written long ago, when the title Holy Ghost was common.
Today almost no one uses that title.
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What ?????

I just posted that the PCA and PCUSA still use the title "Holy Ghost" in their confessions TODAY.

And I posted that the Catholic Encyclopedia TODAY has an entry for "Holy Ghost" but does NOT have one for "Holy Spirit".

So that accounts for A MAJORITY of professing TRINITARIANS !!!!!

But I share your dislike for the TRINITARIAN term "God the Holy Ghost"...

Since the Bible NEVER uses that term (or even the term "God the Holy Spirit").
 
J

johnny guitar

Active member
Yahchristian said:
What ?????

I just posted that the PCA and PCUSA still use the title "Holy Ghost" in their confessions TODAY.

And I posted that the Catholic Encyclopedia TODAY has an entry for "Holy Ghost" but does NOT have one for "Holy Spirit".

So that accounts for A MAJORITY of professing TRINITARIANS !!!!!

But I share your dislike for the TRINITARIAN term "God the Holy Ghost"...

Since the Bible NEVER uses that term (or even the term "God the Holy Spirit").
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I am concerned with what title Christians use in worship TODAY, NOT what was written in formal confessions many years ago, and TODAY Christians refer to God The Holy Spirit.
 
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