Westminster Confession: "proceeding"

The doctrine as believe by the reformed community is specified in the Westminster confession: "In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding: the Son is eternally begotten of the Father: the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son." This is what I believe. The RCC agrees with this assessment.

TRINITARIANS...

1.) In your confession, does "proceeding" mean "send" / "sent"?

John 15:26... But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Galatians 6:4... And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

2.) Is God the Son "proceeding"?

Luke 20:13... Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.

1 John 4:14... And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

P.S.

Here is a concise statement of what I believe...
The spirit Yahweh is the only one who is eternal. Yahweh is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. Yahweh in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, Yahweh in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal Yahweh is called God the Father.

And here is a more detailed overview...
(Note: I agree with the view of Melito, Bishop of Sardis around AD 160-180. The following is how I word it.)
For this creation, Yahweh God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how Yahweh would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent Yahweh (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Son of God) with a glorious human body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Son of God. But whereas Yahweh created a human spirit and soul for each of us, Yahweh himself became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
 
1.) In your confession, does "proceeding" mean "send" / "sent"?

2.) Is God the Son "proceeding"?

One TRINITARIAN posted the Doctrine of the Trinity contained in the Westminster Confession.

Another TRINITARIAN started a thread titled "The doctrine of the Holy trinity is clear in Scripture..."

So TRINITARIANS...

If the doctrine of the Trinity is so clear in Scripture...

So that you can have a small 55 word confession describe it...

Why hasn't any Trinitarian been able to answer the questions.
 
1.) In your confession, does "proceeding" mean "send" / "sent"?

2.) Is God the Son "proceeding"?

Is there ANY Trinitarian who can answer my questions.

Here is the Westminster Confession on the Trinity…
In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.

Here is how I see the distinctions between the Father, the Son, and the Spirit...
GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

P.S. Here is how I came to my stataement...

GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

As is the convention of English Bibles, I use the word GOD (with all caps) to signify that the underlying Hebrew word is YHWH (a proper name) rather than Elohim (a title).
Exodus 23:17 ESV… Three times in the year shall all your males appear before the Lord GOD.

GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

John 4:24 ESV… God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

Deuteronomy 33:27The eternal God is your dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms. And he thrust out the enemy before you and said, ‘Destroy.’
Isaiah 37:16 ESV… “O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth.

GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

Genesis 1:2 ESV… The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

1 Timothy 3:16 ESV… Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

Genesis 1:2 ESV… The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

Luke 1:35 ESV… And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

1 Corinthians 8:6 ESV… yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
 
In response to your various questions, I find them for the most part pointless. You seem to be nitpicking at word useage while not trying to understand what is being said? Personally, I don't want to go round and round on such obfuscating the primary discussion.

But as YOU have said to others...

To choose to not respond to the reasoning I presented tells any honest reader that you don't have a meaningful reply, i.e. you know your wrong but your throwing out this smoke screen to hide your retreat. Wow, simply wow.

I would hope SOME Trinitarians COULD answer the questions concerning the Trinitarian confession!
 

johnny guitar

Active member
TRINITARIANS...

1.) In your confession, does "proceeding" mean "send" / "sent"?

John 15:26... But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Galatians 6:4... And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

2.) Is God the Son "proceeding"?

Luke 20:13... Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.

1 John 4:14... And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

P.S.

Here is a concise statement of what I believe...
The spirit Yahweh is the only one who is eternal. Yahweh is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. Yahweh in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, Yahweh in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal Yahweh is called God the Father.

And here is a more detailed overview...
(Note: I agree with the view of Melito, Bishop of Sardis around AD 160-180. The following is how I word it.)
For this creation, Yahweh God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how Yahweh would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent Yahweh (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Son of God) with a glorious human body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Son of God. But whereas Yahweh created a human spirit and soul for each of us, Yahweh himself became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
1) NO
2) NO
Next question...........................
 
1) NO
2) NO
Next question...........................

The Westminster Confession only gives TWO Bible references for the statement "the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son".

John 15:26... But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Galatians 4:6... And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

But YOU believe "proceeding" in the confession DOES NOT mean "send" or "sent" in those two verses. Correct?

So those verses DO NOT show "the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son" according to YOU.

Since YOU disagree with the writers of the Westminster Confession...

What verse(s) in the Bible DO show what "proceeding" means in your opinion?
 

johnny guitar

Active member
The Westminster Confession only gives TWO Bible references for the statement "the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son".

John 15:26... But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Galatians 4:6... And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

But YOU believe "proceeding" in the confession DOES NOT mean "send" or "sent" in those two verses. Correct?

So those verses DO NOT show "the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son" according to YOU.

Since YOU disagree with the writers of the Westminster Confession...

What verse(s) in the Bible DO show what "proceeding" means in your opinion?
Correct. Proceed and send are NOT the same meaning.
 
Correct. Proceed and send are NOT the same meaning.

So you believe the writers of the Westminster Confession WERE WRONG to reference these two verses in regards to the Holy Ghost "proceeding"...

John 15:26... But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Galatians 4:6... And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


And you did NOT answer my question...

Which verse(s) in the Bible DO show what "proceeding" means in your opinion?
 

johnny guitar

Active member
So you believe the writers of the Westminster Confession WERE WRONG to reference these two verses in regards to the Holy Ghost "proceeding"...

John 15:26... But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Galatians 4:6... And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


And you did NOT answer my question...

Which verse(s) in the Bible DO show what "proceeding" means in your opinion?
The Holy Spirit BOTH proceeds AND is sent.
 
The Holy Spirit BOTH proceeds AND is sent.
Proceed and send are NOT the same meaning.

Just to clarify your TRINITARIAN view...
1.) What is the meaning of "proceed/proceeds"?
2.) What is the meaning of "send/sent"?

When the Westminster Confession says "the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son"...
3.) Are they saying the Holy Ghost is "proceeding" or are they saying the Holy Ghost is "sent"?

4.) Is this verse saying the Holy Ghost is "proceeding" or is it saying the Holy Ghost is "sent"?
John 15:26... But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

5.) Is this verse saying the Holy Ghost is "proceeding" or is it saying the Holy Ghost is "sent"?
Galatians 4:6... And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
 

johnny guitar

Active member
Just to clarify your TRINITARIAN view...
1.) What is the meaning of "proceed/proceeds"?
2.) What is the meaning of "send/sent"?

When the Westminster Confession says "the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son"...
3.) Are they saying the Holy Ghost is "proceeding" or are they saying the Holy Ghost is "sent"?

4.) Is this verse saying the Holy Ghost is "proceeding" or is it saying the Holy Ghost is "sent"?
John 15:26... But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

5.) Is this verse saying the Holy Ghost is "proceeding" or is it saying the Holy Ghost is "sent"?
Galatians 4:6... And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Look up the meaning of proceed and send in the dictionary.
BTW why the continual reference to The Holy Spirit as The Holy Ghost????
In Gal. 4:6 the term is SENT.
 
Look up the meaning of proceed and send in the dictionary.

"send" in John 15:26 means... "to bid a thing to be carried to one"
"proceedeth" in John 15:26 means... "to go forth, go out, depart"

TRINITARIAN Don Stewart explains that the difference between "proceeds" and "sent" is that "proceeds" refers to being "sent"...

Eastern Christianity believed that the Holy Spirit was eternally sent by the Father while Western Christianity held that He was sent by both God the Father and God the Son. To this day, there is disagreement between Eastern and Western Christianity as to whom the Spirit eternally proceeds.

What do YOU see as the difference between "proceeds" and "sent"?


BTW why the continual reference to The Holy Spirit as The Holy Ghost????

If you would read the OP, I was quoting a TRINITARIAN who used the phrase "God the Holy Ghost" and I am asking questions about the TRINITARIAN's quote.



In Gal. 4:6 the term is SENT.

Right.

Is "sent" in Galatians 4:6 simply the past tense of "send" in John 15:26?

Or do you think those words have different meanings?
 
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