What are the works that are needed

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balshan

Well-known member
RCs are always going it is not faith alone but faith plus. They seem to be confused on what the plus is, but it is not works. So let us clarify what the plus truly is, is it:

1. Obeying the commandments
2. Obeying the pope and his buddies
3. Making the RCC sacraments, if so is one sacrament more important than another
4. Reading the catechism
5. Reading the scriptures
6. Saying the rosary
7. Wearing scapulars
8. Good works and what do they consider good works.

Is faith necessary for salvation? or is it the plus? They these works their own?
 
balshan said:
RCs are always going it is not faith alone but faith plus. They seem to be confused on what the plus is, but it is not works. So let us clarify what the plus truly is, is it:

1. Obeying the commandments
2. Obeying the pope and his buddies
3. Making the RCC sacraments, if so is one sacrament more important than another
4. Reading the catechism
5. Reading the scriptures
6. Saying the rosary
7. Wearing scapulars
8. Good works and what do they consider good works.

Is faith necessary for salvation? or is it the plus? They these works their own?
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The Jewish man needed clarification too, and asked Jesus what he must do to obtain eternal life - and we all know what Jesus told him.

We are saved by grace. Faith comes from God's grace and works comes from God's grace. We don't earn salvation from our own works but from God's grace at work in us.

As Paul says "By the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me has not been in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than all of them-though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me."
 
dingoling. said:
The Jewish man needed clarification too, and asked Jesus what he must do to obtain eternal life - and we all know what Jesus told him.

We are saved by grace. Faith comes from God's grace and works comes from God's grace. We don't earn salvation from our own works but from God's grace at work in us.

As Paul says "By the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me has not been in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than all of them-though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me."
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Waiting for you to clarify what you mean by faith plus. You still have avoided answering and are now diverting. You are not Jesus.
 
balshan said:
Waiting for you to clarify what you mean by faith plus. You still have avoided answering and are now diverting. You are not Jesus.
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What I meant by faith plus? I don't recall ever saying we are saved by faith plus.

We are saved by grace.
 
balshan said:
Really is that what scriptures says. You are always saying we are not saved by faith alone, so it must be faith plus. You are being disingenuous with your post.
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The only place in scripture that faith alone appears is in the book of James and the words "not by" appear right before them.

We are saved by grace.
 
dingoling. said:
The only place in scripture that faith alone appears is in the book of James and the words "not by" appear right before them.

We are saved by grace.
Click to expand...

"Some of the ECF knew the Greek language and where taught by the apostles. Their understanding is probably better than ours."
-ding

so you accept these ECF Greek Scholars?
ECF Greek scholars read that as vindicated/proved


the early Church saw James 2:21 as talking about vindication/proof

Cyril of Alexandria, a native Greek speaker, on the issue of the meaning of the term edikaiōthē (translated “justified” in Ancient Christian Commentary on the Scripture, New Testament VI), clearly explains that he believes that it refers to vindication, and not literal justification:

Clement, who writes at a time contemporaneous enough with James’ to have a thorough understanding of edikaiōthē and the doctrine of the Apostles that is surrounding it. Citing James 2:23, and likely having the whole section in mind when exegeting Hebrews 11, he writes that Abraham proved his faithfulness in the performance faithful acts:
Not only does Clement endorse the view that Abraham was vindicated by his sacrifice of Isaac, as he was found faithful in our sight because of it, he linguistically uses the term “justified” to mean “vindicated” elsewhere in the letter.

Cyprian of Carthage writes:
“men are tried by God for this purpose, that they may be proved.”

A later Latin writer, Hilary of Poitiers,
Abraham had proved, by the sacrifice of his son,

"the Greek language had no other word that meant vindication in the present tense"
orthodoxchristiantheology.com

James 2:21: Works vindicate (edikaiōthē) our faith before all

What does James mean that Abraham was justified by works? Can we be justified multiple times, once by faith and other times by works? Is James contradicting Paul? We answer these questions in the f…
orthodoxchristiantheology.com orthodoxchristiantheology.com
 
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dingoling. said:
The only place in scripture that faith alone appears is in the book of James and the words "not by" appear right before them.

We are saved by grace.
Click to expand...
Without faith no grace. How does grace come, through faith. You are so strongly blinded to the truth that you have to add to God's word and manipulate it to make false beliefs fit and you fail every time.
 
dingoling. said:
The only place in scripture that faith alone appears is in the book of James and the words "not by" appear right before them.

We are saved by grace.
Click to expand...
You are not saved by works and works are mentioned in James, grace comes through faith. No faith, No grace.

eph 2

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
 
balshan said:
Without faith no grace. How does grace come, through faith. You are so strongly blinded to the truth that you have to add to God's word and manipulate it to make false beliefs fit and you fail every time.
Click to expand...
No, it all comes from God's grace.
 
balshan said:
RCs are always going it is not faith alone but faith plus. They seem to be confused on what the plus is, but it is not works. So let us clarify what the plus truly is, is it:
Click to expand...
I assume this is regarding what is needed to enter heaven and receive eternal life - that is, to be saved on the day of God's judgment and wrath.

It's faith plus the grace that causes rebirth, including the love that the Spirit pours into your heart, so that you might love:

The dogma from Trent:

CANON XI.-If any one says, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favor of God; let him be anathema.

balshan said:
1. Obeying the commandments
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If you allow the Spirit to guide you, the love that the Spirit provides will make you obey the commandments. There is no law against the things that love has you do. Love is the fulfillment of the law (Romans).
balshan said:
2. Obeying the pope and his buddies
3. Making the RCC sacraments, if so is one sacrament more important than another
4. Reading the catechism
5. Reading the scriptures
6. Saying the rosary
7. Wearing scapulars
Click to expand...
All these are important insofar as they help you to do what ultimately counts - that you let the Spirit/love be your guide.
balshan said:
8. Good works and what do they consider good works.
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You know a tree by its fruit.
You are given the Spirit through faith, and this is justification.
The Spirit then empowers you to have, for instance, the love you need to do good deeds.
Those good deeds are then the fruit that are looked at on the final day - when God looks at every human being's works without favoritism.

The good deeds come from having Christ's life in us.

So note the difference between being justified when you are baptized into Christ's death and then after arising in rebirth the being saved from wrath at the end of a life of living by Christ's life:

Romans 5:
9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Romans 10:
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
balshan said:
Is faith necessary for salvation? or is it the plus? They these works their own?
Click to expand...
Faith is necessary.
The plus would be: the obedience of faith, the following in the footsteps of Abraham's faith.

Romans 1:5
Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

Romans 4:12
And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

That said, ultimately, Catholic teaching is that if there are no physical deeds to prove that you are a good tree, God will always be able to judge correctly whether you are a good tree or not. The ultimate requirement is that you die "in a state of sanctifying grace," which means that you die with God's life in you. If you are alive in Christ, with the Spirit in you, and are "in" the Spirit so that you have a loving heart, you will be considered righteous, a child of God, circumcised of heart, and co-heir to the inheritance of eternal life.

Once in heaven, your faith and hope fall away as unnecessary, but love remains. Love is ultimately what allows you to even behold God, because God is love, and if you don't know love, then you cannot "see" Him. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. This is why of the three things that make a Christian (faith, hope and love), love is the greatest. It is God's life itself. It's what we are given in our justification, what we are to hold onto through our lives (as exercised in service to Christ), and what will allow us to see God and enter heaven so as to remain in it.
 
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