What believers in God refers to and denotes.

Temujin

Well-known member
If it is true that the only way and place that reality can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind,
This is true, but you should note the difference between reality being known and reality existing without being known.
then the truth and reality must be the result of and originated in and with Someone's Believing Mind. That Originating Believing Mind is God's.
This does not follow from your initial proposition. There's no more really to be said. This conclusion has no relationship with your first statement. In effect these are two unconnected statements, one true one false, stapled together with an illogical use of the connectives If... Then.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Illogical nonsense. In reality only the truth matters. If the only way and place that reality can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind, then how is it possible to know that "reality occurs outside believing minds"?



Strawman and projection. Your conjuring is illogical nonsense and refuted by the mere truthfulness and reality represented in my responses to your conjuring's.

If it is true that the only way and place that reality can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind, then the truth and reality must be the result of and originated in and with Someone's Believing Mind. That Originating Believing Mind is God's.
But that’s not true. Mike provides an unrefuted Checkmate 3. Your God’s mind cannot exist in reality because reality is defined within it.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Strawman, nobody ever said the true beliefs aren't real, you make up stuff. Or maybe you abilities to read correctly are distorted.

Strawman and projection. I am telling you what I believe to be true and not what I think you believe is true.

Yet, there are many beliefs that people believe being reality, yet at a later stage in life do find out it is not reality. As a child I believed in Santa Clausa, in fact I have seen him !

You mean "false beliefs"? Why do you insist on trying to promote "false beliefs" ("find out it is not reality") as beliefs in reality, when you know they aren't justified true beliefs in reality to begin with? Are you pretending that you don't know?

Why don't you just use a justified true belief in reality like; Trump was president in 2019 to represent knowledge of reality?

So you are trying to argue that a "believing mind" is sufficient for truth ? That is "Terconian philosophy", but not the defintion of truth for scholars.

Strawman. No, I am claiming that the Seat of the truth and reality resides in God's mind.
If justified true belief are defined as knowledge of the truth and reality. And in justified true belief being still a belief in reality and defining knowledge of the truth and reality, then a believing mind must be the basis of everything that exists and occurs as reality.

Remember, belief is not SUFFICIENT to be truth alone by itsself. Yes, it needed but not SUFFICIENT. Get the message now ?

Actually if justified true beliefs are still beliefs in reality and also define knowledge of the truth and reality, then beliefs must be both necessary and sufficient in order to make the truth and reality known.

And if you disbelieve belief is sufficient to make the truth and reality known to you; then this is equivalent to universal unbelief, because if belief is necessary, then it MUST occur in reality before the truth and reality is known to you.

Are justified true beliefs; beliefs in reality or not?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
This is true, but you should note the difference between reality being known and reality existing without being known.

Okay. What's "the difference between reality being known and reality existing without being known"?

What are you referring to and denoting when you say "reality existing without being known"?

And if when you say "reality existing without being known" you are referring to something unknown or unknowable, then what is that denoting?

This does not follow from your initial proposition. There's no more really to be said. This conclusion has no relationship with your first statement. In effect these are two unconnected statements, one true one false, stapled together with an illogical use of the connectives If... Then.

Okay, if it is true that the only way and place that reality can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind and it is not true that the truth and reality is the result of and originates in and with a believing mind, then name that other way, place or thing that excludes a believing mind that is capable of knowing and making known the truth and reality and is all done outside of a believing mind? Say what this other way, place or thing is and how it works.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Strawman and projection. I am telling you what I believe to be true and not what I think you believe is true.



You mean "false beliefs"? Why do you insist on trying to promote "false beliefs" ("find out it is not reality") as beliefs in reality, when you know they aren't justified true beliefs in reality to begin with? Are you pretending that you don't know?

Why don't you just use a justified true belief in reality like; Trump was president in 2019 to represent knowledge of reality?



Strawman. No, I am claiming that the Seat of the truth and reality resides in God's mind.
If justified true belief are defined as knowledge of the truth and reality. And in justified true belief being still a belief in reality and defining knowledge of the truth and reality, then a believing mind must be the basis of everything that exists and occurs as reality.



Actually if justified true beliefs are still beliefs in reality and also define knowledge of the truth and reality, then beliefs must be both necessary and sufficient in order to make the truth and reality known.

And if you disbelieve belief is sufficient to make the truth and reality known to you; then this is equivalent to universal unbelief, because if belief is necessary, then it MUST occur in reality before the truth and reality is known to you.

Are justified true beliefs; beliefs in reality or not?
Learn the difference between necessary and sufficient. They have two different meanings. Your conflation of the two is incoherent nonsense. Flour is necessary to make bread. It is not sufficient. If it was sufficient you wouldn't anything else, and your bread would consist of a heap of flour. A packet of bread mix is sufficient, as far as the dry ingredients go.. You don't need anything else. You can make bread with just bread mix, but it isn't necessary, because you can make bread without bread mix, you just need to gather the dry ingredients separately.

Belief is necessary to know the truth. It is not sufficient, since believing something doesn't make it true, otherwise Santa Claus would be popping in and out of existence several times a second as children learn to believe, then disbelieve in him.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Okay. What's "the difference between reality being known and reality existing without being known"?
The difference between Pluto before 18th Feb 1930 and Pluto after that date.
What are you referring to and denoting when you say "reality existing without being known"?
Real things that exist that people currently do not know about. such as Pluto prior to 1930.
And if when you say "reality existing without being known" you are referring to something unknown or unknowable, then what is that denoting?
Its denoting real things that we currently don't know exist. Look at some of the images from the Webb telescope. They reveal galaxies that have existed for billions years that we have only just discovered. There will be more discoveries, galaxies, stars, planets, even perhaps life, which we currently don't know exists.
Okay, if it is true that the only way and place that reality can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind and it is not true that the truth and reality is the result of and originates in and with a believing mind, then name that other way, place or thing that excludes a believing mind that is capable of knowing and making known the truth and reality and is all done outside of a believing mind? Say what this other way, place or thing is and how it works.
You are trying to slip in knowledge of reality, and conflate it with reality itself. Reality just is. It exists. We know about some of it. Some people have beliefs about reality that we don't know about, which may or may not be true and may or may not become known. Reality is under a sheet. Belief is a guess at what is under the sheet. Knowledge is removing the sheet to reveal reality. It also reveals which guesses, which beliefs, were true or false. Until the sheet is removed, we may believe, but we know nothing.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Learn the difference between necessary and sufficient. They have two different meanings. Your conflation of the two is incoherent nonsense.

Strawman and projection, as you are conflating necessary and sufficient.

As if something that exists and occurs (belief) is necessary in order to make something else (the truth and reality) known to exist and occur, then that something's mere necessity must be sufficient in order to make the truth and reality known to us. And like I have already shown; if justified true beliefs are still beliefs in reality, then it must be beliefs necessity that makes the truth and reality known.

Flour is necessary to make bread. It is not sufficient. If it was sufficient you wouldn't anything else, and your bread would consist of a heap of flour. A packet of bread mix is sufficient, as far as the dry ingredients go.. You don't need anything else. You can make bread with just bread mix, but it isn't necessary, because you can make bread without bread mix, you just need to gather the dry ingredients separately.

Not true, as I seen bread without flour. So, flour isn't necessary in order to get bread.

Belief is necessary to know the truth. It is not sufficient, since believing something doesn't make it true, otherwise Santa Claus would be popping in and out of existence several times a second as children learn to believe, then disbelieve in him.

If belief is necessary in order to make the truth known and the truth is unknowable without belief, then your analogy is inapplicable, because there exists breads that don't require flour. But there isn't any knowledge of the truth and reality without belief, a matter of fact justified true beliefs are defined as knowledge of the truth and reality. So, it is belief's occurrence in reality that makes the truth known or knowledge, so reality is the result of a believing mind, because the truth and reality can't be known to exist or occur anywhere else but in and with a believing mind.

But if you think that the truth and reality can be known to exist and occur outside or without a believing mind, then say what that other way, place or thing is that isn't a believing mind and explain how it makes the truth and reality known to exist and occur?
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Strawman and projection, as you are conflating necessary and sufficient.

As if something that exists and occurs (belief) is necessary in order to make something else (the truth and reality) known to exist and occur, then that something's mere necessity must be sufficient in order to make the truth and reality known to us. And like I have already shown; if justified true beliefs are still beliefs in reality, then it must be beliefs necessity that makes the truth and reality known.



Not true, as I seen bread without flour. So, flour isn't necessary in order to get bread.



If belief is necessary in order to make the truth known and the truth is unknowable without belief, then your analogy is inapplicable, because there exists breads that don't require flour. But there isn't any knowledge of the truth and reality without belief, a matter of fact justified true beliefs are defined as knowledge of the truth and reality. So, it is belief's occurrence in reality that makes the truth known or knowledge, so reality is the result of a believing mind, because the truth and reality can't be known to exist or occur anywhere else but in and with a believing mind.

But if you think that the truth and reality can be known to exist and occur outside or without a believing mind, then say what that other way, place or thing is that isn't a believing mind and explain how it makes the truth and reality known to exist and occur?
No, you are wrong. Mere necessity does not imply sufficiency. That's nonsense.

Knowing something is true is not the same as something being true. Nor is it the same as believing something to be true. All these overlap, but they are not exactly congruent.
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
"They" don't know it because "they" disbelieve it though, "they" can only know it because "they" believe it.



The problem with that is that the truth, reality, morality, logic, consciousness existence and belief itself originates and occurs in His Believing Mind, because they are only the result of a Believing Mind. If you disbelieve in the truth and reality of God, then you can't know how the truth and reality works.



Again, if a false unjustified belief in Santa Claus doesn't represent reality, then neither is it a real belief in reality. And you cannot know reality with false beliefs.
I think we are talking past each other, but I don't think it is worth the time to try to sort things out.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
No, you are wrong. Mere necessity does not imply sufficiency. That's nonsense.

Your opinion as to belief's sufficiency is irrelevant, because in reality belief is necessary in order to make the truth known to you. So, you seem not to understand what 'necessary' means. Do you see any room for your opinion as to beliefs sufficiency in necessary's definition?

Necessary:
1. required to be done, achieved, or present; needed; essential.
Synonyms: obligatory requisite required compulsory mandatory imperative demanded needed called for needful essential indispensable vital

2. determined, existing, or happening by natural laws or predestination; inevitable.
Synonyms: inevitable unavoidable certain sure inescapable inexorable ineluctable fated destined predetermined predestined preordained

Knowing something is true is not the same as something being true. Nor is it the same as believing something to be true. All these overlap, but they are not exactly congruent.

Strawman. That's not the argument; that they are "the same". But rather that they logically entail and infer one another.

These things do not oppose one another or they don't mean you can't have one if you have the other.

"Knowing something is true", logically entails and infers that "something being true"?

And again, if "knowing something is true" logically entails and infers believing that "something to be true"
 
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mikeT

Well-known member
The problem is that you're not interested in the truth.
Actually, the real problem is that you're only interested in declaring your opinions as truth, and then ignoring everything which calls them into question.

You're the one not interested in the truth in-and-of itself.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
The problem is that you're not interested in the truth.
That's ridiculous. This lady is a sincere and honest seeker after truth, perhaps the most sincere and honest person here. Certainly, she leaves you for dust.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Actually, the real problem is that you're only interested in declaring your opinions as truth, and then ignoring everything which calls them into question. You're the one not interested in the truth in-and-of itself.

Not true. I am interested in how and why the truth and reality is known to us. And the ONLY way and mode by which that occurs is in and with belief and a believing mind. Why do you think belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you, do you think this necessity depends on how you feel about something?

That's ridiculous. This lady is a sincere and honest seeker after truth, perhaps the most sincere and honest person here. Certainly, she leaves you for dust.

You have to love and depend on the truth and seek reality more than anything else in your life. And if you don't, then this is considered idolatry.
 
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