What benefits are lost when ...

balshan said:
The catechism on Mary, prayers to Mary and devotion to Mary:

971

All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship...The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary

The words epitome of the whole gospel is untrue. Mary is not the embodiment of the whole gospel.

From Vatican news:

Pope Francis writes a letter to all the faithful, encouraging them to pray the Rosary, especially during the month of May.
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Hoist by their own petard!
 
Atemi said:
Psalm 141:2 IS figurative language.
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RiJoRi said:
Huh?
Psa 141:2 [CPDV] Let my prayer be guided like incense in your sight: the lifting up of my hands, like the evening sacrifice.

Can you explain how the utilization of the word "like" twice in one verse indicates that "it is not figurative"?

--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
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shnarkle said:
The author is using the figure Simile which employs the use of "like" or "as" showing that his prayers rise to God just as incense rises up into the heavens.
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Bonnie said:
Oh, so prayers ARE the exact same thing as incense one burns? Is that it? But DO note that the prayers are to God--not to dead Hebrew saints, like Moses or Abraham.

Sorry, but it IS figurative language, a simile. Just as sweet-smelling smoke from incense rises to the heavens, so too do our prayers rise to God, and are sweet to Him, if prayed sincerely and humbly.

So, yes, it IS figurative language.
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the manner how the prayers of the saints go up to heaven is figurative, 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand. but the prayers of the saints do go up to heaven is a reality.

here is another example that it is not figurative and the reality that it is really 'prayers'. any jew at that time is familiar with the book of Tobit 12:12 When thou, Tobias, wert praying, and with tears, when thou wert burying the dead, leaving thy dinner untasted, so as to hide them all day in thy house, and at night give them funeral, I, all the while, was offering that prayer of thine to the Lord.
Who is offering the prayer? 15 Who am I? I am the angel Raphael, and my place is among those seven who stand in the presence of the Lord.
 
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ramcam2 said:
the manner how the prayers of the saints go up to heaven is figurative, 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand. but the prayers of the saints do go up to heaven is a reality.
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This is a distinction with no effective difference. Figurative speech emphasizes some aspect or meaning, but some people get this idea that it somehow diminishes the reality. It doesn't. You're injecting your own personal ideas into the definition of figurative speech.
 
shnarkle said:
This is a distinction with no effective difference. Figurative speech emphasizes some aspect or meaning, but some people get this idea that it somehow diminishes the reality. It doesn't. You're injecting your own personal ideas into the definition of figurative speech.
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are you saying our prayers do not go up to heaven?
 
ramcam2 said:
the manner how the prayers of the saints go up to heaven is figurative, 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand. but the prayers of the saints do go up to heaven is a reality.

here is another example that it is not figurative and the reality that it is really 'prayers'. any jew at that time is familiar with the book of Tobit 12:12 When thou, Tobias, wert praying, and with tears, when thou wert burying the dead, leaving thy dinner untasted, so as to hide them all day in thy house, and at night give them funeral, I, all the while, was offering that prayer of thine to the Lord.
Who is offering the prayer? 15 Who am I? I am the angel Raphael, and my place is among those seven who stand in the presence of the Lord.
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Tobit isn't Scripture. But our prayers rising "AS incense" is, and is a literary device called a "simile", which uses "like" or "as" to compare 2 different things.
 
PeanutGallery said:
Where does scripture, Jesus, or his apostles tell you to pray to whom you think that you should?
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Borderline rule 24 violation, as it is simply explanation. Non-Catholics are not to debate each other on this board. Take such debates to the Apologetics board.--Moderator
 
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RiJoRi said:
Sadly, names change, arguments (or lack thereof) do not. ?

--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
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This is so true. Most of the questions raised on CARM were raised and refuted in the first few centuries of early Christianity. Everything now is just variations on the early heresies.
 
balshan said:
Oh then why are RCs unable to do it now?
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We can. Just because you refuse to accept our answers doesn't mean we haven't defended the teachings of the Church. Truth is not dependent upon your acceptance of Catholic arguments.
 
Kirby said:
We can. Just because you refuse to accept our answers doesn't mean we haven't defended the teachings of the Church. Truth is not dependent upon your acceptance of Catholic arguments.
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But you don't. If they were answers that proved your claims they would not be refused but the answer full of holes, RC word games, the following of false writings like the POJ, the downgrading of scripture and missing facts and evidence. The truth is not dependent upon your acceptance of any thing at all. It will affect your ability to follow Jesus, when you ignore the holes exposed in your so called teachings. Prove their are benefits to praying to Mary that are better than praying to the Lord.
 
balshan said:
Oh then why are RCs unable to do it now?
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Kirby said:
We can. Just because you refuse to accept our answers doesn't mean we haven't defended the teachings of the Church. Truth is not dependent upon your acceptance of Catholic arguments.
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you can't. canned 'answers' of false teachers aren't scriptural.

the teachings of 'the Church' are usually contrary to God's word.

catholics don't know the truth of His word. they only know what the rcc teaches. they are very different.
 
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