What cannot be created?

5wize

Well-known member
Ok.
Now we're getting somewhere.

I don't believe something came from nothing.
I believer everything came from the One who has always existed, and he spoke it into existence.
So, the something came from the SomeOne, and his intellect, possesses everything needed to design it, because in him are all the laws, principles, precepts, etc.... to create, sustain, and maintain it all.
Anthropomorphic thinking. There are NO examples of "intellect, possesses everything needed to design" outside biological sentient beings. For you to assert that, you must make it up. You must completely fabricate a different source for such activity than exists in any witnessed and experienced reality.
 

docphin5

Active member
I think that is the main issue atheists see with theists, that being the capacity to project our own inner voices onto the unknown without reflection as to what mundane earthly experiences, successes, failures, joys and disappointments formed our inner voices.
I am not asking anyone to believe anything without evidence or reason. I am just saying that the reason and evidence I present supports what I was told. In my case, I was told first what to believe, then I went and discovered the evidence based upon the instructions given me. If you were in my position you would have to believe it too. That is why it is personal for me BEFORE it became evident.
 

bigthinker

Active member
Rather curious that you start and end with the assumption that you have to be right, and no other view is correct.
Isn't that what they call--- confirmation bias?
As such, why should I believe that your bias is correct?
You could respond for the sake of argument.
Besides, all you're doing is pointing out the speck in Ficciones' eye while being blind to the plank in your own.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
You could respond for the sake of argument.
I am responding.
I've just found over the past 43 years that arguments don't change people's minds.
You either want to know God or not.
It's not about winning an argument.

It's about a relationship between us and our Creator, through Jesus Christ.



Besides, all you're doing is pointing out the speck in Ficciones' eye while being blind to the plank in your own.
I'm acutely familiar with the nasty planks, rocks, dust, pebbles, etc. Which I have.

Why do you think I am learning to follow Jesus?

It sure isn't because I think I'm such a great guy!

I've violated all 10 of the commandments. In word and deed, in attitude and action. By desire and longing. In rage, and contempt.

So, I didn't come to Jesus because I thought he needed me to preach his message.

I came because I needed a savior and he's the only one who has what is necessary to save me.

Believe me, I don't think for a moment that I'm doing him any favors.

So, if you're trying to figure out a way to escape culpability for your own sin, you'll find that Jesus is the only way.
There are no other escapes.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Why do you think I am learning to follow Jesus?

It sure isn't because I think I'm such a great guy!

I've violated all 10 of the commandments. In word and deed, in attitude and action. By desire and longing. In rage, and contempt.

So, I didn't come to Jesus because I thought he needed me to preach his message.

I came because I needed a savior and he's the only one who has what is necessary to save me.

Believe me, I don't think for a moment that I'm doing him any favors.
Why not just focus on being a better person? We can all do that, with or without Jesus.

There are several steps you could immediately take that would improve your interactions here.

Or do you think that because you are following Jesus you don't even have to try to improve?
 

Whatsisface

Active member
I am responding.
Not in a rational manner.
I've just found over the past 43 years that arguments don't change people's minds.
You're right, they don't so much. But evidence can and does.
You either want to know God or not.
It's not about winning an argument.

It's about a relationship between us and our Creator, through Jesus Christ.
Wrong. You need to go deeper. It's about showing how you know you have a relationship with a creator. Imploring us to do the same as you doesn't do that, if you can't say how you know. If we follow you, we will only find ourselves in the same position as you, not being able to say how we know
I came because I needed a savior and he's the only one who has what is necessary to save me.
Muslims say the same about Allah.
 

bigthinker

Active member
I am responding.
I've just found over the past 43 years that arguments don't change people's minds.
You either want to know God or not.
It's not about winning an argument.

It's about a relationship between us and our Creator, through Jesus Christ.




I'm acutely familiar with the nasty planks, rocks, dust, pebbles, etc. Which I have.

Why do you think I am learning to follow Jesus?

It sure isn't because I think I'm such a great guy!

I've violated all 10 of the commandments. In word and deed, in attitude and action. By desire and longing. In rage, and contempt.

So, I didn't come to Jesus because I thought he needed me to preach his message.

I came because I needed a savior and he's the only one who has what is necessary to save me.

Believe me, I don't think for a moment that I'm doing him any favors.

So, if you're trying to figure out a way to escape culpability for your own sin, you'll find that Jesus is the only way.
There are no other escapes.
Well, it appears that it's not an argument you can win. The opponents in this case expect demonstrable, falsifiable evidence.
And if there was any for your position, I'm sure it would be a simple enough matter to present it.
What would likely suit you better would be to engage with people who already believe as you do.
Apparently, your God is real if you believe it to be real.
It's a shame his power to make himself known is handicapped by the lack of belief.
It's an interesting scenario.
 

J regia

Well-known member
I am responding.
I've just found over the past 43 years that arguments don't change people's minds.
You either want to know God or not.
It's not about winning an argument.

It's about a relationship between us and our Creator, through Jesus Christ.




I'm acutely familiar with the nasty planks, rocks, dust, pebbles, etc. Which I have.

Why do you think I am learning to follow Jesus?

It sure isn't because I think I'm such a great guy!

I've violated all 10 of the commandments. In word and deed, in attitude and action. By desire and longing. In rage, and contempt.

So, I didn't come to Jesus because I thought he needed me to preach his message.

I came because I needed a savior and he's the only one who has what is necessary to save me.

Believe me, I don't think for a moment that I'm doing him any favors.

So, if you're trying to figure out a way to escape culpability for your own sin, you'll find that Jesus is the only way.
There are no other escapes.
Is that why you chose Jesus to be a scape goat for your sins, whereas trump just chose himself to worship and to blame everyone else for his sins?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Not in a rational manner.
Rational according to whom?
There's nothing rational about your practices.
You're right, they don't so much. But evidence can and does.
So you are recognizing your irrationality. Good. I find myself wondering if you actually comprehend the nature of actual reasoning.


Wrong. You need to go deeper. It's about showing how you know you have a relationship with a creator. Imploring us to do the same as you doesn't do that, if you can't say how you know. If we follow you, we will only find ourselves in the same position as you, not being able to say how we know
Well, it's not that difficult.
YHVH has explicitly stated that he will give us a heart to know him.
What do you think that looks like?



Muslims say the same about Allah.
Then follow allah.
I think you'd make a great terrorist. You're regularly bombing the forum with useless and destructive weapons. While they're in words, I've found over the years that words are far more destructive than people realize.
 

Whatsisface

Active member
Rational according to whom?
The normal rules of conversation and logic, of course.
There's nothing rational about your practices.
You have it the wrong way round. I base my beliefs on evidence and reason which is entirely rational. You don't, which isn't.
So you are recognizing your irrationality. Good. I find myself wondering if you actually comprehend the nature of actual reasoning.
Wrong, I'm recognising your irrationality.
Well, it's not that difficult.
YHVH has explicitly stated that he will give us a heart to know him.
What do you think that looks like?
Just saying that doesn't show how you know you have a relationship with God. You're being irrational again.
Then follow allah.
I think you'd make a great terrorist. You're regularly bombing the forum with useless and destructive weapons. While they're in words, I've found over the years that words are far more destructive than people realize.
This, as usual, deliberately misses the point. That's dishonesty as well as irrationality from you. The way you justify your faith is much the same way others justify theirs.
 

Whatsisface

Active member
It's the same speaker.
Wrong again. It's the same presenter, different speakers. The speakers are talking about revelation from God. Except each one has a different God, and justify their revelation as being the true one. This undermines revelation as being from God.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
The normal rules of conversation and logic, of course.
Ironic.
because what you think are normal rules of conversation and logic, you view me as irrational, and incapable of conversation.
So I find myself wondering if it's you who live in your own world of irrationality, and unwillingness to converse normally.

You have it the wrong way round. I base my beliefs on evidence and reason which is entirely rational. You don't, which isn't.
Evidence of what? Inexperience, and the refusal to do what Jesus said?
Reason, based on whose reason, yours?
Further ignoring what YHVH said--- my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than yours, and my thoughts higher than yours.
So, if you actually think your finite ways, and your finite thoughts make knowing God is not real, or knowable possible.... you've screwed yourself completely.


Wrong, I'm recognising your irrationality.
Yet you're completely incapable of actually demonstrating this. You have nothing more than empty words, without and basis upon an objectively verifiable set of rationality, logic, and reason.


Just saying that doesn't show how you know you have a relationship with God. You're being irrational again.

Which is exactly why it's incumbent upon you to do what Jesus said for yourself.
Which is exactly why I've been telling you this for over 8 years now.
So..... when you grow up, and become an adult, that's when you'll learn that I have spoken rationally, that I have spoken truth, and that truth is objectively knowable only through doing what Jesus said is necessary.


This, as usual, deliberately misses the point. That's dishonesty as well as irrationality from you. The way you justify your faith is much the same way others justify theirs.
Yet you have no basis but your own biases, your own preconceived notions, and beliefs to corroborate this claim of yours.
 

Whatsisface

Active member
Ironic.
because what you think are normal rules of conversation and logic, you view me as irrational, and incapable of conversation.
All the atheists here say the same. You don't interact by responding directly what's said to you. You don't answer questions. You go off on irrelevant tangents designed to bring it round to your usual shtick, or you are deliberately awkward. The latter is an obvious sign that the atheists here have got under your skin.
So I find myself wondering if it's you who live in your own world of irrationality, and unwillingness to converse normally.
That's because you have no idea what others think and why they think it.
Evidence of what? Inexperience, and the refusal to do what Jesus said?
This remark all too obviously shows you haven't a clue about what constitutes good evidence.
Further ignoring what YHVH said--- my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than yours, and my thoughts higher than yours.
So, if you actually think your finite ways, and your finite thoughts make knowing God is not real, or knowable possible.... you've screwed yourself completely.
Now all you have to do is show how you know Yahweh said this. But we all know you won't.
Yet you're completely incapable of actually demonstrating this. You have nothing more than empty words, without and basis upon an objectively verifiable set of rationality, logic, and reason.
It's good you can admit this about yourself. It's the first step into a saner world. If you want further help, we'll be only too happy.
Which is exactly why it's incumbent upon you to do what Jesus said for yourself.
Which is exactly why I've been telling you this for over 8 years now.
So..... when you grow up, and become an adult, that's when you'll learn that I have spoken rationally, that I have spoken truth, and that truth is objectively knowable only through doing what Jesus said is necessary.
What did Jesus supposedly say exactly, and how did doing it show you he is who you think he is?
Yet you have no basis but your own biases, your own preconceived notions, and beliefs to corroborate this claim of yours.
Another positive admission from you. I think you're making progress.
 
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