What degree of obedience qualifies for salvation?

[Aaron32]

Often, Mormons are judged by having a high bar of requirements needed for "salvation".

To Christians I ask, what commandments are being referred to in this verse?

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments - 1 John 2:3

In other words, at what point can I look at a commandment and say "Nah, I don't need to keep this one."
Or, "I'd feel guilty if I was ACTUALLY expected to keep the commandment of (fill in the blank)."
"There's no way I can keep the commandment of (fill in the blank)."

Shall we continue still in sin, that grace may abound? Roman 6:1

For Mormons, the only real encompassing commandment required for eternal life is enduring in faith in Jesus Christ by taking upon His name. And if you have real faith, all other necessary commandments will be kept, and by so doing, the Holy Ghost will give us further guidance.

2 Ne 31:
14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

16 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.

17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

And I imagine some will ask "Well, what about temple ordinances?"
And I would reply that's a fulfillment of prophecy (Micah 4:1-2) and "going on to perfection" (Heb 6:1). And by "perfection" I'm NOT referring to being "sinless", but rather complete, full grown, and fully embracing the entirety of Christ's character - essentially resulting in Charity (1 Cor. 13). Learning and Covenanting to laws of Obedience, Sacrifice, the Gospel, Chastity, and Consecration help us do that.

 

[Theo1689]

Why do you play these games, Aaron?

Your favourite pastime is responding to Christians and whining, "No! That is NOT what we believe!"

So why are you trying to bait us, just so you can continue to play your stupid game?

Instead of wasting everyone's time playing these stupid games, why don't you simply just TELL us what you PERSONALLY believe?

(May I hazard a reason? I think it's because Mormons don't want others to know what they believe, they only want to use doctrine to try to discredit Christians.)

Often, Mormons are judged by having a high bar of requirements needed for "salvation".

Well, "after all we can do" does sound pretty high...

To Christians I ask, what commandments are being referred to in this verse?

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments - 1 John 2:3

Well, if you want to know what Christians believe, I suggest you take your question to a CHRISTIAN forum.
This forum is the MORMONISM forum, and is not for discussing what Christians believe.

In other words, at what point can I look at a commandment and say "Nah, I don't need to keep this one."

You tell us.
Do you believe God gave us "The Ten Suggestions"?
BoJ apparently does, since He thinks God is too "petty" to demand that we not steal, for instance.

Or, "I'd feel guilty if I was ACTUALLY expected to keep the commandment of (fill in the blank)."
"There's no way I can keep the commandment of (fill in the blank)."

Why do you simply answer your own question, so we will all KNOW what you believe, instead of having to guess?
Why do you play these stupid games, Aaron?

For Mormons, the only real encompassing commandment required for eternal life is enduring in faith in Jesus Christ by taking upon His name. And if you have real faith, all other necessary commandments will be kept, and by so doing, the Holy Ghost will give us further guidance.

Well, I've talked to many Mormons for over 30 years.
And based on my experience, I would estimate that 999 out of 1000 Mormons would DISAGREE with your claim above. So I have to question your unsubstantiated claim that you are representing "Mormons" in general.

Perhaps if you quoted something authoritative from your church, your claim might be more compelling.

Your phrase, "necessary commandments" seems rather bizarre.
Can you please define what you mean by "necessary commandments"?
And then can you please explain what "unnecessary commandments" are?

 

[Slyzr]

Often, Mormons are judged by having a high bar of requirements needed for "salvation".

To Christians I ask, what commandments are being referred to in this verse?

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments - 1 John 2:3

In other words, at what point can I look at a commandment and say "Nah, I don't need to keep this one."
Or, "I'd feel guilty if I was ACTUALLY expected to keep the commandment of (fill in the blank)."
"There's no way I can keep the commandment of (fill in the blank)."

Shall we continue still in sin, that grace may abound? Roman 6:1

For Mormons, the only real encompassing commandment required for eternal life is enduring in faith in Jesus Christ by taking upon His name. And if you have real faith, all other necessary commandments will be kept, and by so doing, the Holy Ghost will give us further guidance.

2 Ne 31:
14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

16 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.

17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

And I imagine some will ask "Well, what about temple ordinances?"
And I would reply that's a fulfillment of prophecy (Micah 4:1-2) and "going on to perfection" (Heb 6:1). And by "perfection" I'm NOT referring to being "sinless", but rather complete, full grown, and fully embracing the entirety of Christ's character - essentially resulting in Charity (1 Cor. 13). Learning and Covenanting to laws of Obedience, Sacrifice, the Gospel, Chastity, and Consecration help us do that.

seriosuly ... not sure that it matters it that much.


Regarding your temple ordinances and such.

That is for you guy's and I'm ok with it.

However ...... when one does not want to be involved in such; IMO you guy's are so-post to say that is ok.

Instead of seeking to continually seeking to propagate an eternal construct over other people .that / you guy's admit are eternal anyway.



bd

 

[Aaron32]

seriosuly ... not sure that it matters it that much.


Regarding your temple ordinances and such.

That is for you guy's and I'm ok with it.

However ...... when one does not want to be involved in such; IMO you guy's are so-post to say that is ok.

Right. I think that's the 11th Article of Faith.

Instead of seeking to continually seeking to propagate an eternal construct over other people .that as you guy's admit are eternal anyway.

What is this "eternal construct" you speak of?

 

[Slyzr]

Right. I think that's the 11th Article of Faith.

What is this "eternal construct" you speak of?

Would you expound on the 11th article of faith?

Never read it.

Kind of the same thing you guys are saying; we are eternal.

 

[shnarkle]

Often, Mormons are judged by having a high bar of requirements needed for "salvation".

To Christians I ask, what commandments are being referred to in this verse?

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments - 1 John 2:3

He's referring to all of God's commandments as articulated in the bible.

by "perfection" I'm NOT referring to being "sinless", but rather complete, full grown, and fully embracing the entirety of Christ's character

By embracing the entirety of Christ's character one cannot then continue to sin. There is no sin in Christ, and therefore those who are in Christ cannot sin.

 

[Aaron32]

Would you expound on the 11th article of faith?

Never read it.

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Kind of the same thing you guys are saying; we are eternal.

But how does that relate to "over other people"?

 

[Slyzr]

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

But how does that relate to "over other people"?

See bolded above, and thanks for your clarification.

 

[Slyzr]

He's referring to all of God's commandments as articulated in the bible.

By embracing the entirety of Christ's character one cannot then continue to sin. There is no sin in Christ, and therefore those who are in Christ cannot sin.

Then we are D-E-A-D.

Never to live.

 

[Magdalena]

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

But how does that relate to "over other people"?

Meaning you try to convert other people, tell them their beliefs are wrong, and that yours are the only way. Kind of negates 11.

 

[Slyzr]

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Meaning you try to convert other people, tell them their beliefs are wrong, and that yours are the only way. Kind of negates 11.

Winner ...... I was just contemplating that.


Thanks for posting .......

 

[Aaron32]

Meaning you try to convert other people, tell them their beliefs are wrong, and that yours are the only way. Kind of negates 11.

I disagree.
People shouldn't accept another belief on the basis of what's wrong and pick the lesser of two falsehoods.
On the contrary, Mormons believe everyone one has degrees of truth. The 11th AoF is saying we can each believe according to our own understanding without condemning each other.

 

[Markk]

I disagree.
People shouldn't accept another belief on the basis of what's wrong and pick the lesser of two falsehoods.
On the contrary, Mormons believe everyone one has degrees of truth. The 11th AoF is saying we can each believe according to our own understanding without condemning each other.

Like being taught that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon, and the Protestant Church is her harlot daughter? That was taught by a GA either in the Ensign or Era when I was young. Or the LDS church in one of their standard works teaching the what I currently believe is an abomination and those that preach it are corrupt?

You might want to go and read some of BY sermons and his feeling for the gentile nation? Heck, just the way the word gentile is often used between Mormons counters the 11 article of faith.

While up to this point our Mormon experience has been pretty close, we are 180 here...mocking other faiths was very common in an Mormon only environment, and in my experience ...especially the Catholics (in my youth), and of late on forums with TBM’s....Evangelicals.

But even if those teaching are swept under the rug, you can’t get away from the first vision account...the very founding reason for the restoration of the church and the 1st missionary lesson is that the Christian church in Smiths time, the same church that I belong to (protastant) is an abomination and just gives lip service to God.

 

[Magdalena]

I disagree.
People shouldn't accept another belief on the basis of what's wrong and pick the lesser of two falsehoods.
On the contrary, Mormons believe everyone one has degrees of truth. The 11th AoF is saying we can each believe according to our own understanding without condemning each other.

No one said anything about choosing the lesser of two falsehoods. Where did that come from?

Article of Faith
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

It’s interesting the Joseph Smith would write that, but also say that God appeared to him and told him all churches were wrong and he shouldn’t join any of them.

And then Smith started sending missionaries out into the world to tell people their churches were wrong, and mormonism was the only one with the truth.

 

[Markk]

No one said anything about choosing the lesser of two falsehoods. Where did that come from?

Article of Faith
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

It’s interesting the Joseph Smith would write that, but also say that God appeared to him and told him all churches were wrong and he shouldn’t join any of them.

And then Smith started sending missionaries out into the world to tell people their churches were wrong, and mormonism was the only one with the truth.

And...there was number floating around years ago that the LDS church spend about 500 million dollars a year on all their missionary efforts. Half a billion dollars focused towards letting anyone that will listen that the Christian church was basically dead and has no authority, and is an abomination.

 

[Magdalena]

And...there was number floating around years ago that the LDS church spend about 500 million dollars a year on all their missionary efforts. Half a billion dollars focused towards letting anyone that will listen that the Christian church was basically dead and has no authority, and is an abomination.

Right. That doesn’t really support the 11th article of faith. But then, Smith contradicted himself and broke a lot of his own rules. Like the 12th AofF... obeying the laws of the land.

 

[Aaron32]

While up to this point our Mormon experience has been pretty close, we are 180 here...mocking other faiths was very common in an Mormon only environment, and in my experience ...especially the Catholics (in my youth), and of late on forums with TBM’s....Evangelicals.

When Joseph Smith started, he was very open and accepting in his theology.
"“While one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of men, causes ‘His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.’ [Matthew 5:45.]”

I think his attitude, and other Church leaders' changed when his people were getting extermination orders against them and the government did nothing.

But even if those teaching are swept under the rug, you can’t get away from the first vision account...the very founding reason for the restoration of the church and the 1st missionary lesson is that the Christian church in Smiths time, the same church that I belong to (protastant) is an abomination and just gives lip service to God.

That's given the assumption that Joseph's experience is true. If I'm a non-believer why would I care?
Two things can be mutually true:
Your/(or My) teachings are an abomination.
We are each allowed to worship according to the dictates of our conscience.

 

[brotherofJared]

Why do you play these games, Aaron?

Why do you?

Your favourite pastime is responding to Christians and whining, "No! That is NOT what we believe!"

So why are you trying to bait us, just so you can continue to play your stupid game?

Again, ignore the point of the statement and argue about the reasons he said it. What a silly game that is.

Well, "after all we can do" does sound pretty high...

Actually, that sound pretty reasonable. If all we can do is kill to survive and we can still be saved in the kingdom of God, then I'd say that's extremely reasonable.

Well, if you want to know what Christians believe, I suggest you take your question to a CHRISTIAN forum.

Or he can just say what we believe those commandments are and then watch you guys tell us that's not what we believe.

You tell us.

Well, you've told us that one of them is not stealing pens from our employer. For that, we'll burn in hell forever.

Do you believe God gave us "The Ten Suggestions"?

Ahhh... so by that, I assume then that those commandments in 1 John 2:3 are the ones he meant. If we don't keep those, then we're going to burn in hell. But what about the one that says we can't enter the kingdom of God unless we're baptized? That's not one of the 10 commandments. Some of them are easy to keep unless you take the higher road, what about anger? What about lustful thoughts? What about multiply and replenish the earth, the very first commandment? Are those suggestions? What happens if you break those or do those matter?

Who decides what keeping the Sabbath day holy means? When do we know it's been kept holy? What about honoring parents? How do we know we've accomplished that? or having no other gods before God? Some people would say that Christians around the world worship idols. They carry it around their neck or hang it over their alters or on the steeples of their churches. Who decides when what we do is laying the commandments aside for personal convenience or whatever?

So don't talk about the ten suggestions like you believe they're really commandments. It gets really complicated and some people, like the Jews, wanted to know exactly how far they could cheat and still be considered "worthy". It's quite common for people to play as close to the edge as possible.

BoJ apparently does, since He thinks God is too "petty" to demand that we not steal, for instance.

That's not what I said. I said hanging a man for stealing a pen from his employer that his employer gave him to do his job is petty (I realize that the reason the employee had the pen in the first place was never discussed before, but the whole idea is ridiculous). I don't believe God is going to burn you because you took your employer's pen. You might and that's fine, but if God does that, then I'd lie that I stole the pen just so I don't have to live with beings that are that uptight.

Here's the scenario as I see it. My employer provides me pens to do my job. Then he hands me my paycheck and when I sign the back of my check with the pen he gave me, he then accuses me of stealing his ink and fires me. Wait, what? You can't fire me. I quit.

Such a person would kill a person for eating fruit. I wonder whose fruit that belonged too. Was it God's? Did Adam steal his employer's fruit?

Well, I've talked to many Mormons for over 30 years.

Uh huh. We're supposed to believe you?

And based on my experience, I would estimate that 999 out of 1000 Mormons would DISAGREE with your claim above.

Really, please tell us what we believe. Go ahead, put words in my mouth. I'm curious what I really believe.

So I have to question your unsubstantiated claim that you are representing "Mormons" in general.

I'll substantiate it. There, now it's not unsubstantiated.

Perhaps if you quoted something authoritative from your church

He just did, 2 Nephi 31:20

Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

"perfect brightness of hope" is faith, "if you have real faith, all other necessary commandments will be kept" all the other commandments, love God and all men, which are the other necessary commandments will be kept. So, there you have it, substantiated by something authoritative from our church... Well, I don't now if you believe we believe the Book of Mormon to be authoritative, but if I say it is, will you believe that or will you tell me that's not what I believe? Do I need to find an authoritative source from our church to substantiate that as well?

Your phrase, "necessary commandments" seems rather bizarre.
Can you please define what you mean by "necessary commandments"?

They are the commandments that God gave us. You can usually find them in the scriptures or from living prophets. And Aaron32 pointed out that we learn more from the Holy Ghost which is tailored to each person's individual personal best.

And then can you please explain what "unnecessary commandments" are?

Just because there are necessary commandments, doesn't mean there are unnecessary, but I could give you a few. 1. listen to your critics, they know more about what you believe than you do. That's an unnecessary commandment. 2. don't eat fruit. That's an unnecessary commandment. 3. drive as fast as you want because laws don't apply to the saved. That's an unnecessary commandment. We don't have to follow those. We can not listen to our critics, eat as much fruit as we can stand, and drive the speed limit. I'm pretty sure God isn't going to burn us because of it.

 

[organgrinder]

Aaron wrote:
Often, Mormons are judged by having a high bar of requirements needed for "salvation".

To Christians I ask, what commandments are being referred to in this verse?

To insure we are talking apples to apples, it is my understanding Mormons believe everyone-- or nearly everyone-- is saved because of the atonement of Jesus. Christians do not believe in a universal salvation. Are you instead referring to exaltation where believers live in God's presence?

 

[Aaron32]

To insure we are talking apples to apples, it is my understanding Mormons believe everyone-- or nearly everyone-- is saved because of the atonement of Jesus. Christians do not believe in a universal salvation. Are you instead referring to exaltation where believers live in God's presence?

My definition for "Saved/Salvation" is receiving remission of sins.Aka. "justification". Being the opposite of "hell"/"eternal torment".
I personally don't know why resurrection is considered a form of salvation if you receive your body back just to experience eternal torment.