What degree of obedience qualifies for salvation?

[Aaron32]

No one said anything about choosing the lesser of two falsehoods. Where did that come from?

You said Mormons try and convert people, telling them that they are wrong. That's an either or fallacy. If I'm wrong, does that make you automatically right, or vice-versa? Is that what conversion is for you?

Article of Faith
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

It’s interesting the Joseph Smith would write that, but also say that God appeared to him and told him all churches were wrong and he shouldn’t join any of them.

No different than Jesus claiming he's "the way, the truth, and the life" while being perfectly comfortable letting the blind lead the blind.

And then Smith started sending missionaries out into the world to tell people their churches were wrong, and mormonism was the only one with the truth.

So because I believe in something, and accept that others have their own beliefs - sharing my belief is somehow automatically condemning others? We can't add to our truths? Do they only cancel each other out?

Maybe that's the abomination God was referring to - only providing competing philosophies of men through secular learning (flesh and blood) rather than simply turning to God himself to be taught.

 

[shnarkle]

Then we are D-E-A-D.

Never to live.

Rest in peace.

 

[Magdalena]

You said Mormons try and convert people, telling them that they are wrong. That's an either or fallacy. If I'm wrong, does that make you automatically right, or vice-versa? Is that what conversion is for you?

You’d better ask Joseph Smith that question. He’s the one who said all other churches are wrong, and his was the only right one.

No different than Jesus claiming he's "the way, the truth, and the life" while being perfectly comfortable letting the blind lead the blind.

Where in the world do you get the idea that He’s “ok” with that?

So because I believe in something, and accept that others have their own beliefs - sharing my belief is somehow automatically condemning others? We can't add to our truths? Do they only cancel each other out?

Why did you go on a mission? And don’t try to tell us it wasn’t to convert people. You told them your church was the only true one. The only one with the real priesthood, and the only way to exaltation.

Maybe that's the abomination God was referring to - only providing competing philosophies of men through secular learning (flesh and blood) rather than simply turning to God himself to be taught.

If you truly want to be taught by God, you’ll have to let go of your affiliation with false prophets and false doctrine.

 

[brotherofJared]

seriosuly ... not sure that it matters it that much.

Well, if you read part 1 of @Aaron32 personal story, you'd know that it does. This is what I took away from it. If you don't have faith, it's all work. It looks like a bunch of restrictive rules designed to make life boring and not very fun and it just gets worse. Faith made the difference between a list of requirements to a way of life. So, it does matter.

Regarding your temple ordinances and such.

That is for you guy's and I'm ok with it.

However ...... when one does not want to be involved in such; IMO you guy's are so-post to say that is ok.

We do. Our critics don't. They seem to want to micromanage us.

Instead of seeking to continually seeking to propagate an eternal construct over other people .that / you guy's admit are eternal anyway.

Again, that is the commission that Jesus Christ gave us, to go into the world and "propagate". On a serious note, as I said before, we don't try to convert people. We have a message. If the person wants to hear that message, we deliver it and testify of its truth. The person hearing the word makes the decision to do something about it or not. We don't debate the issues. We simply deliver, answer questions, extend an invitation and, if they accept the invitation, we prepare them for baptize

We're not propagating anything that we don't believe is true. If people are eternal "anyway", why is it bad to tell them that they are eternal?
.

 

[brotherofJared]

Would you expound on the 11th article of faith?

the 11th Article of Faith says we believe it's okay for everyone to "worship how, where, or what they may". That would include our worship which is to follow the teachings of Christ and share what we have (that's what he taught, sharing). Again, our missionaries don't debate, our critics do and because they do, we, the members of the church, feel it an obligation to defend what we believe. On this site, it goes a step further and we have to correct our critics' misconceptions about what we believe.

You're welcome to believe we are not eternal beings. It doesn't change the truth. Logically, since we know, or believe, that our spirits live after our body dies, then it stands to reason that the spirit does not require the body to live. Therefore, it is quite possible that our spirits also lived before we were born. The Bible never addresses how spirits are created. That is an assumption placed on us by traditional Christianity and it comes from an incorrect idea about who and what God is.

 

[brotherofJared]

He's referring to all of God's commandments as articulated in the bible.

Very good. One could take that a step further and say it was actually God's commandments articulated by the prophets and apostles. So, if we had some of those today, then, though it isn't in the scriptures yet, it is still the same source.

By embracing the entirety of Christ's character one cannot then continue to sin.

That's not true. We've seen any who profess to embrace the entirety of Christ's character and yet they still sin. Even if we actually do embrace it, we still sin. The idea that we don't is ludicrous.

 

[brotherofJared]

Then we are D-E-A-D.

Never to live.

True. We all still sin regardless of what or who we embrace.

Note: You must be careful who you respond to. @shnarkle is not a Mormon and your response could be considered a debate. My suggestion would be let the non-Mormon comments slide regardless of whether you agree with them or not. It's a difficult path you choose because it appears to me that you don't agree with anyone on this board.

Based on @shnarkle response, I think you found another Charismatic.

 

[Aaron32]

You’d better ask Joseph Smith that question. He’s the one who said all other churches are wrong, and his was the only right one.

You're the one that can't seem to accept the 11th AoF not JS

Where in the world do you get the idea that He’s “ok” with that?

If he wasn't ok with it, why did he say leave them alone?

Why did you go on a mission? And don’t try to tell us it wasn’t to convert people. You told them your church was the only true one. The only one with the real priesthood, and the only way to exaltation.

Yes. The gospel brings joy. I wanted to share that.

If you truly want to be taught by God, you’ll have to let go of your affiliation with false prophets and false doctrine.

Ditto.

 

[brotherofJared]

Meaning you try to convert other people

Nope. That's not what that means.

tell them their beliefs are wrong

No. That's what you are doing. We are simply defending what we believe. I don't even know what you are supposed to believe, so how can I tell you that you are wrong. But if I believe that I'm right that automatically assumes that you are wrong. The 11th Article of Faith states that we're fine with that (so long as it doesn't include violating the Constitution of the US).

that yours are the only way.

Logically and Biblically, there is only one way. People who like to be entertained on Sundays instead of actually finding the way that Christ taught are more than welcome to their entertainment, even if they call it worship. But people who are serious about their faith will abandon false religions in an effort to find the one true religion. There is only one. There cannot be many. Logically stated, if there is only one way into heaven, then any religion that teaches any other way but that one way is teaching false doctrine. For if the one way, states, for example, that no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they've been baptized, then any religion that teaches that it's optional is obviously teaching a false doctrine. We can even get into the details about how that baptism should be performed or when it should be performed. Do we baptize babies? Do we baptize the dead? Who gets a pass and doesn't have to be baptized? If the one way is through baptism, then that means any church that teaches another way is false.

It would behoove the seeker of truth (as opposed to entertainment) to find out what that one way is and find a church that teaches it.

 

[brotherofJared]

Winner ...... I was just contemplating that.


Thanks for posting .......

Well, that all depends on if there is only one way. Is there more than one way into the kingdom of God?

 

[brotherofJared]

Like being taught that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon

It's not that that isn't true. It was just not appropriate to say so bluntly.

Heck, just the way the word gentile is often used between Mormons counters the 11 article of faith.

Please show me where we ever tried to stop you from teaching your religion? I can show you lots of examples where you guys tried to stop us from teaching ours (You guys meaning our critics). In fact, if I remember correctly, you guys even killed some of our guys trying to stop us. Some would say that whole US became a critic and tried to stop us.

Now show me where we did that to prevent the teaching of your religion.

While up to this point our Mormon experience has been pretty close, we are 180 here...mocking other faiths was very common in an Mormon only environment, and in my experience ...especially the Catholics (in my youth), and of late on forums with TBM’s....Evangelicals.

Sorry, but the way you all showboat, it is mockable. The Holiness in the religions of our critics is laughable. I had a Baptist minister screaming at me at the top of his lungs while jabbing his finger at my chest all because I, was not a member of his congregation, did not get to the chapel early enough to open the doors for his congregation all while he was preventing me from going to my own services.

But the point of the 11th Article of faith is your right to worship the way you want to and that we will defend that right. It doesn't mean that we won't share what we have with others. What are you guys afraid of? Obviously, you don't think you have the truth or people wouldn't be peeling off. I really don't know what your deal is @Markk nor do I care. If you found something better, why don't you share it instead of spending all of your time on this board rearranging my religion into some make-believe fantasy that doesn't exist in any world? Denigrating someone else's beliefs is not the way to make converts (though I'm not sure that is your purpose here).

you can’t get away from the first vision account...the very founding reason for the restoration of the church and the 1st missionary lesson is that the Christian church in Smiths time, the same church that I belong to (protastant) is an abomination and just gives lip service to God.

And we aren't trying to. We own that statement. But at the same time, if you choose to worship as you do then that is your right and we will defend that right. Show me any Mormon discussion board that has protestant churches under the heading of cult. You won't find one. As a church, we don't spend any time discussing other religions or what they believe. The topic does come up, but we have no lesson material, within the church, that discusses the issues of other religions or how to deal with them if we meet them on the street.

If I was to find out anything about what you believe, it would have to come from you. And you know what? I might disagree with what you believe. I might debate that I'm right and you're wrong. But none of that means I'm trying to stop you from worshiping the way you do and believing what you believe. I also wouldn't try to get you to join my church unless you weren't satisfied with what you had and you were looking. I would hope that if you did join my church that you wouldn't go back to your old church and tell them how wrong they are. I would hope that you'd do what I did and discuss what you believe with those who might be looking for the truth, but don't go beating other people over the head trying to convince them they are wrong. That is what you are doing here now.

 

[brotherofJared]

It’s interesting the Joseph Smith would write that, but also say that God appeared to him and told him all churches were wrong and he shouldn’t join any of them.

I find it interesting that you think that just because you are wrong means that we must force you to stop worshiping the way you worship. The fact remains, religious freedom is a foundation to all free societies. I cannot make you think the way I want you to think. I can't make you believe the things that I believe. That doesn't mean that you're right. It doesn't mean that I'm wrong.

You guys, IMO, are way overboard on this idea that because we believe you're wrong that somehow that means that you can't worship the way ou want to. Teaching the gospel as we understand it isn't an effort to anything but share what we have. If you don't want it, we don't bust our way into your homes. If you disagree with a point of doctrine, we don't argue the point. You are entitled to make your own choices and we support that. You guys, apparently don't.

 

[Aaron32]

I find it interesting that you think that just because you are wrong means that we must force you to stop worshiping the way you worship. The fact remains, religious freedom is a foundation to all free societies. I cannot make you think the way I want you to think. I can't make you believe the things that I believe. That doesn't mean that you're right. It doesn't mean that I'm wrong.

You guys, IMO, are way overboard on this idea that because we believe you're wrong that somehow that means that you can't worship the way ou want to. Teaching the gospel as we understand it isn't an effort to anything but share what we have. If you don't want it, we don't bust our way into your homes. If you disagree with a point of doctrine, we don't argue the point. You are entitled to make your own choices and we support that. You guys, apparently don't.

Maybe it's because they can only think in dualistic terms that they can leave the Church but they can't leave it alone.

 

[brotherofJared]

You’d better ask Joseph Smith that question. He’s the one who said all other churches are wrong

They are wrong, but that doesn't mean you can't worship the wrong thing if you want to. We don't mind. Worship a pair of tennis shoes if you want to.

Where in the world do you get the idea that He’s “ok” with that?

Because that's what he did. In fact, he even hid the gospel truths in parables for the purpose of keeping the blind, blind.

Why did you go on a mission? And don’t try to tell us it wasn’t to convert people.

Missionaries don't convert people. They teach a message to those who will listen. Sure, every missionary goes on a mission to convert people. They can hope that some will be converted right? But what missionaries actually do is teach, not convert.

You told them your church was the only true one

Sure. Why would we lie to the people we teach? Of course, we're going to tell them that. They can believe it or disbelieve it.

The only one with the real priesthood, and the only way to exaltation.

Actually, the church doesn't provide exaltation. That is also a personal choice. It comes with a lot of peer pressure, true, but if you're not going to be exalted, we don't kick you out. The exaltation issue can be remedied at any point before the judgment, whenever that is.

If you truly want to be taught by God, you’ll have to let go of your affiliation with false prophets and false doctrine.

If you truly want to be taught by God, you'll need to find him first.

 

[Magdalena]

I find it interesting that you think that just because you are wrong means that we must force you to stop worshiping the way you worship. The fact remains, religious freedom is a foundation to all free societies. I cannot make you think the way I want you to think. I can't make you believe the things that I believe. That doesn't mean that you're right. It doesn't mean that I'm wrong.

You guys, IMO, are way overboard on this idea that because we believe you're wrong that somehow that means that you can't worship the way ou want to. Teaching the gospel as we understand it isn't an effort to anything but share what we have. If you don't want it, we don't bust our way into your homes. If you disagree with a point of doctrine, we don't argue the point. You are entitled to make your own choices and we support that. You guys, apparently don't.

When you tell people they can’t get to the highest level Of heaven to live with God unless they join your church, you’re the ones going way overboard.

 

[brotherofJared]

When you tell people they can’t get to the highest level Of heaven to live with God unless they join your church, you’re the ones going way overboard.

When you tell us we're condemned to hell because of what we believe, you're the ones going way overboard.

 

[Magdalena]

When you tell us we're condemned to hell because of what we believe, you're the ones going way overboard.

I’ve never told anyone that.

You just can’t really follow Christ and false prophets at the same time.

 

[Markk]

It's not that that isn't true. It was just not appropriate to say so bluntly.

Well, along with your belief your have no problem of Blacks not being given the PH and discriminated against in the LDS church, for 150 plus years... because they can receive what white men could receive in the after life, and, your bigoted view of women...this certainly complements these beliefs.

At least you admit it, I’ll give you that.

 

[brotherofJared]

I’ve never told anyone that.

You don't have to. It's pretty obvious.

You just can’t really follow Christ and false prophets at the same time.

If that's a concern of yours, then you should stop following your false prophets.

 

[Magdalena]

You don't have to. It's pretty obvious.

If that's a concern of yours, then you should stop following your false prophets.

I only follow Christ.