I already posted in the apologetics subforum on this topic. It is easy enough to see that while they recognize that works are important, they also say that they are not necessary. But they absolutely are necessary because if you don't do the works that is associated with what you claim you believe, you cannot be saved.
So we have to identify and separate necessary works, from not necessary works.
Ordinances to walk in are necessary.
For all the other commandments, we strive to obey, but we are not perfect. Thus, "by grace we are saved, after all we can do."
I once knew the wife of a Nazarene minister. She had no problem with committing adultery until she got caught. Was she saved during the time she was committing adultery when she thought she was getting away with it? I don't think so. I believe she is a lot better off now, but now she practices what she claims she believes. Her daughter, as far as I know, as still not forgiven her. She will probably have to deal with those consequences for the rest of her life. They are not just important, they are absolutely necessary or you cannot be saved.
So now she's perfect? She doesn't break any other commandments? At what level obedience can I claim to be saved? What exactly is the line you're looking for that you're expecting me to reveal to you?
I stated in my OP, the only commandment we're expected to obey is to have faith and everything else follows. True faith leads to repentance. Repentance leads to baptism. And fulfilling the commandments in meekness leaded to the reception of the Holy Ghost. And the Holy Ghost will tell you all things that you should do.
Oh, but that IS the argument and they do make the difference.
What does that mean? How do works make the difference?
If anything, striving to be obedient, shows us our weaknesses, its giving our weaknesses to Christ that makes them strengths is what makes the difference.
I also said, it is those works that qualify us for the grace that does save us. If you don't do the works, you won't be qualified.
Again, conflating ordinances with the rest of the commandments. What amount of works is required? God can't permit sin with the least degree of allowance.
I agree, but if the works aren't there, then obviously there is no faith. That's why they are not only important, they are necessary.
So you have no faith in 3 Nephi 11, because instead to trying find agreement in the best of intentions, you continually want to contend with me.
Go pull the beam out of your eye, then we can talk.
LOL. No. It is our works that make the difference. Works transform lip service into faith. Without works all that remains is lip service which, of course, is not salvific.
It makes the difference to help people determining if you have faith, but it does not make any difference in our level of conversion or toward our salvation. Works are simply manifestations of faith that already exists within us. They help us recognize that we are on the right path. They are a lagging indicator. We did not do good works, for the sake of good works.
Except for little children, every person that is saved must be baptized. But, not every person that is baptized will be saved.
How was Alvin Smith saved? He wasn't baptized. He didn't even have the work done for him. If works make the difference, then explain this paradox.
But they can only be saved, if they are reconciled to Christ. I'm not sure if you know what that means.
I know what it means. I don't know what it means to
you.
It is the process that allows us to correct our course, the cycle of obedience, failure, repentance, obedience. It means they actually have to try to follow his teachings and if they fail, repent and keep trying.
Nope. I disagree. I don't see examples in the scriptures of people trying to be obedient, fail, and then try again.
Being reconciled to Christ means confessing to Christ that are hearts are broken in a contrite spirit, turning our lives over to Him, and then accomplishing the things which he commands us.
At the same time, no one can be saved in ignorance.
So are little children all knowledgeable?
Therefore, somewhere along the way, knowledge must be obtained. Then those who accept Christ can be judged in accordance with that knowledge.
Yep.
We are saved by grace, we are judged by works and works is the result of our faith. If the works are not there, the faith isn't either. That's why works makes the difference.
These two sentences are a complete contradiction:
You say "Works
is the result of faith."
and "Works make the difference."
What do you tell drug/sex addicts that want to change, but keep making the same mistakes over and over? I'd imagine you'd say "Just TRY HARDER until you can get saved. You're not there yet." Yeah, there's no hope there. Works cannot be the catalyst that makes the difference.
Works are the evidence of our faith.
Suppose we live next door, and you ask me to walk to your house. And it's snowy outside.
I know how to walk, I know where your front door is, I believe that if I put my knowledge into action I will reach your house. That belief is faith.
Now, if I've never been to your house before, then I don't REALLY
know, but I have
a fair amount of confidence than my plan of action will get me there. That confidence is faith.
As I walk to your house, I leave footprints in the snow. And you ask me, how did you get to my house. Should I then say "my footprints got me here."? No, that's simply evidence that I HAD faith that got me there.
Being at your house, I can say I my faith is no longer faith, it's knowledge.
So here's the question. Do you
know that Jesus Christ is your Savior, or do you simply
believe that Jesus is your Savior?
I know Jesus Christ is my Savior, because I have the ability to live according to His words I could not otherwise do. I know the difference in behavior didn't come from me. In the words of Moroni 10:32 - Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
If you know Jesus is your Savior, then you must claim that you are "saved". You might not be perfect, but you are justified, according to His law - which is the law of the gospel of repentance. You can become perfected as you obey teachings of the scriptures, attend the temple, follow the prophet, etc. (which is the everlasting gospel) using the repentance process.