What degree of obedience qualifies for salvation?

shnarkle

Well-known member
So maybe the difference that separates us is the principle of agency, and/or the definition of sin.
I'm not following. Sin is transgression of God's commandments, and most Christians openly and defiantly transgress them. The gospel message tells us that we don't have to transgress them anymore. When we become aware of the presence of Christ in our midst, it is impossible to sin anymore. It may very well be impossible to even see it. One of my favorite examples is Isaiah lamenting the corruption rampant within Israel only to then be presented with the beatific vision of Seraphim praising the holiness of God which they see filling all of creation. That's all they can see. God's holiness eclipses and obliterates all sin completely.
The argument used against Mormons is that grace is never obtained because there is something more we can do:

I don't really get this either because God's grace is what allows us to carry out his will.
Yet, if you're saying it's possible to live a sinless life, I'm really curious as to what that looks like.
It is what the gospel is all about. When people get to the point where they can't stand their lives of sin, the gospel tells them that they don't ever have to sin again. The catch is that it is only open to those who can hear it. It is only open to those who are fertile soil for it when it is planted in them.

if it isn't taking root in your or I, then the problem isn't with the gospel message. The problem is that we're not fertile ground for the gospel to be planted in.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
If you are trying to tell me that any human being is totally sinless all the time that is not true at all.
If you are trying to tell me that you comprehend what I posted, that's simply ridiculous.

The new creation doesn't sin. Anyone who claims that they are a new creation and continues to sin doesn't understand the gospel at all. Too many people conflate the letters of John rather than seeing that he is contrasting those who are obedient versus those who aren't.

You and I sin, yet I have comprehended the gospel message enough to note that there is no way anyone can continue to sin under the New Covenant without being eternally damned. The author of Hebrews plainly states: "There remains no more sacrifice for sins" This leaves us with two options: 1. There remains no more sacrifice because Christ's sacrifice doesn't just cover sin, but conforms those chosen by God into the image of Christ who is sinless, or 2. Those who do sin under the New Covenant are damned.

Which sounds like good news to you? Take your pick.
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
If you are trying to tell me that you comprehend what I posted, that's simply ridiculous.

The new creation doesn't sin. Anyone who claims that they are a new creation and continues to sin doesn't understand the gospel at all. Too many people conflate the letters of John rather than seeing that he is contrasting those who are obedient versus those who aren't.

You and I sin, yet I have comprehended the gospel message enough to note that there is no way anyone can continue to sin under the New Covenant without being eternally damned. The author of Hebrews plainly states: "There remains no more sacrifice for sins" This leaves us with two options: 1. There remains no more sacrifice because Christ's sacrifice doesn't just cover sin, but conforms those chosen by God into the image of Christ who is sinless, or 2. Those who do sin under the New Covenant are damned.

Which sounds like good news to you? Take your pick.
Yes we continue to sin as human beings do. But Christ's salvation washes that away and yields us sinless in the Father's eyes and therefore He is the last sacrifice that covered all of mankind. That doesn't mean we do not sin. The way you posted it insinuated Christians never sin. If that is indeed what you mean we do not understand Hebrews in the same way. If any Christian wants to say he does not ever sin I would not believe him. We ALL sin. Everyday. Sure we try to be as Christ like as possible but we are imperfect. Are you saying Christians do not ever sin? Or are you saying that even though we do sin that is washed away yielding us sinless in the Father's eyes? To be on topic for this forum Mormons do not teach that humans are completely sinless. But I would be interested to hear what our Mormon posters feel about this subject.
 
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Fenuay

Well-known member
Where did he say that?
Provide the quote, please.
Post #412 Shnarkle says it.

Quote: "The bible plainly points out that those who are under the New Covenant don't sin. The whole purpose of the new covenant is so that God's chosen people keep his commandments. Keeping commandments is not equivalent to transgressing them."
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Yes we continue to sin as human beings do. But Christ's salvation washes that away and yields us sinless in the Father's eyes and therefore He is the last sacrifice that covered all of mankind. That doesn't mean we do not sin. The way you posted it insinuated Christians never sin. If that is indeed what you mean we do not understand Hebrews in the same way.
I never insinuated that Christians never sin. I explicitly pointed out that the bible defines those who enter into the new covenant as sinless. The explicit purpose of the New Covenant is obedience to God's commandments (see Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 11:19;36:26: Hebrews 8:9,10).

If the Old Testament was sufficient then there would be no need for New one, but if the new one is no better than the old, then we're just engaging in semantics. We've just come up with a new name for the Old Covenant. The old covenant was based upon one's will and effort; i.e. their own works whereas the New Covenant is based upon the faith OF Christ indwelling within the new creation created not to sin, but for good works.

The faith of Christ cannot fail to produce good works. The faith of Christ cannot produce sin. You and I continue to sin, therefore the faith of Christ is not what is motivating us. We can pretend we're saved, but until one has an acute awareness of Christ's presence in our midst, we're lost.
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
I never insinuated that Christians never sin. I explicitly pointed out that the bible defines those who enter into the new covenant as sinless. The explicit purpose of the New Covenant is obedience to God's commandments (see Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 11:19;36:26: Hebrews 8:9,10).

If the Old Testament was sufficient then there would be no need for New one, but if the new one is no better than the old, then we're just engaging in semantics. We've just come up with a new name for the Old Covenant. The old covenant was based upon one's will and effort; i.e. their own works whereas the New Covenant is based upon the faith OF Christ indwelling within the new creation created not to sin, but for good works.

The faith of Christ cannot fail to produce good works. The faith of Christ cannot produce sin. You and I continue to sin, therefore the faith of Christ is not what is motivating us. We can pretend we're saved, but until one has an acute awareness of Christ's presence in our midst, we're lost.
Nope I fully disagree. Jesus was crucified to cover our sins. The Bible does not support what you are saying. You can interpret any way you want but it doesn't make your interpretation clear and no Biblical scholars would agree with you.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Nope I fully disagree.
You can't fully disagree because you don't fully even understand my position yet.
Jesus was crucified to cover our sins.
True, however, covering sins is not an invitation to continue to sin.
The Bible does not support what you are saying.
It most certainly does, and I provided a number of passages to document that fact. You've ignored them, and continue to ignore them without providing anything other than your own baseless assertions.
You can interpret any way you want
I didn't interpret it. I provided you with the passages for you to look at yourself. Obviously you have no intention of honoring this discussion with an honest response.
but it doesn't make your interpretation clear and no Biblical scholars would agree with you.
Plenty biblical scholars do agree with me. In fact, I'm getting my position from them.
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
I don't recall responding to this.
Is it possible that we do sin (failing to keep ALL the commandments), though we desire to keep the commandments, yet those sins are swallowed up in Christ as we continue to have faith, and partake of His flesh and blood?
Yes! 🥰
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
You can't fully disagree because you don't fully even understand my position yet.

True, however, covering sins is not an invitation to continue to sin.

It most certainly does, and I provided a number of passages to document that fact. You've ignored them, and continue to ignore them without providing anything other than your own baseless assertions.

I didn't interpret it. I provided you with the passages for you to look at yourself. Obviously you have no intention of honoring this discussion with an honest response.

Plenty biblical scholars do agree with me. In fact, I'm getting my position from them.
I do not agree. I read the scriptures you posted. You are misinterpreting them. That is my honest response. Can you please provide which Biblical Scholars agree with you?
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
You can't fully disagree because you don't fully even understand my position yet.

True, however, covering sins is not an invitation to continue to sin.

It most certainly does, and I provided a number of passages to document that fact. You've ignored them, and continue to ignore them without providing anything other than your own baseless assertions.

I didn't interpret it. I provided you with the passages for you to look at yourself. Obviously you have no intention of honoring this discussion with an honest response.

Plenty biblical scholars do agree with me. In fact, I'm getting my position from them.
Based on what you believe no human is saved and all are damned regardless of faith.
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
<sigh>

Do you ACTUALLY think he would say, "Yes, that's precisely what I believe"?!
No but it's precisely what he is saying. Are you sinless Theo because I know you are Christian. And I know you are very intelligent. So maybe you can explain what he is saying.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
No but it's precisely what he is saying. Are you sinless Theo because I know you are Christian. And I know you are very intelligent. So maybe you can explain what he is saying.

This is the Mormonism forum.
So your question is off-topic.
Further, I really have no further desire to interact with you since you intentionally misrepresent other posters.

Let's get back to discussing MORMONISM.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Based on what you believe no human is saved and all are damned regardless of faith.
Again, you are incapable of comprehending what I've posted. All who are saved are saved in their own order according to God's plan of salvation. I'm merely pointing out that God explicitly states that the new covenant is for the explicit purpose of obeying his commandments, and that those who don't can't be under that new covenant.

Again, the author of Hebrews points out that Christ's sin covers those under "the first testament". Hebrews 9:15

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

Notice that those who "WERE" under the first testament, but are no longer under that testament are the ones who are called to receive this promise of eternal inheritance. There is no mention ANYWHERE of those who are under the New Covenant continuing to transgress God's commandments. Christ reigns with an iron rod.
 
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