What degree of obedience qualifies for salvation?

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Well, along with your belief your have no problem of Blacks not being given the PH and discriminated against in the LDS church, for 150 plus years...
Nope. God is in control. I believe, in his wisdom he didn't do anything about it. As far as there only can be one true church, that has nothing to do with my belief. It's simply a logical fact. There can only be one truth.
your bigoted view of women
I'm sure I don't know what you mean. But you're entitled to your opinion even if I have no clue where you got it.

Again, you twist my words. The is a logical fallacy to argue that there can be more than one truth. There is only one and anything that different from that truth, no matter how slight, is not the truth. Your opinion about my beliefs concerning blacks in the priesthood and women are irrelevant, but you think if you can slap some bigotted comments on top of it, it'll make it look better.:rolleyes:
 

Markk

Active member
Nope. God is in control. I believe, in his wisdom he didn't do anything about it. As far as there only can be one true church, that has nothing to do with my belief. It's simply a logical fact. There can only be one truth.

I'm sure I don't know what you mean. But you're entitled to your opinion even if I have no clue where you got it.

Again, you twist my words. The is a logical fallacy to argue that there can be more than one truth. There is only one and anything that different from that truth, no matter how slight, is not the truth. Your opinion about my beliefs concerning blacks in the priesthood and women are irrelevant, but you think if you can slap some bigotted comments on top of it, it'll make it look better.:rolleyes:
It is relevant in who you are. Right or wrong I see very oppressed man, under the oppression of a legalistic dogma of the past.

The argument is not whether or not there is more than one true church, but about the 11th article of faith and whether the church has practiced it. Obviously you piped in without even understanding what Aaron and I were discussing.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member

What degree of obedience qualifies for salvation?​

NO level of "obedience", since Salvation can NEVER be "Earned". Salvation comes when one is CONVICTED by the Holy SPirit of his SIN, and of Judgement coming. Then REPENTANCE can happen, and when one calls upon God IN FAITH (gifted by God) for salvation, the Holy SPirit indwell the person, and they're a New Creation - a Born Again Christian. FAITH gets it done, and good works will then follow as a result if the indwelling Spirit.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
It is relevant in who you are. Right or wrong I see very oppressed man, under the oppression of a legalistic dogma of the past.
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
Ummmm okay. Right or wrong.
The argument is not whether or not there is more than one true church
Let's see. The argument, as I understand it was about my belief. Your statement was "along with your belief ... (then comes your bigotted assumptions about other things you think I believe - from another thread)". Let's see what that belief was...

Hmm. it was about something that isn't true. Let's see what other irrelevant things you posed to which I responded to... Your statement was "Like being taught that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon". Now, I wonder what that has to do with the 11th article of faith? I know. Nothing. You just decided to blurt it out like someone passing gas uncontrollably. But that's what I responded to. If you didn't want to make it about the true church, then you shouldn't have brought it up.

The 11th Article of faith is about freedom of religion and that we respect that in each person, including ourselves. Which has nothing to do with the degree of obedience that qualifies us for salvation.

On that point, it seems to be a ridiculous point to argue because there must be some degree of obedience or else everyone would be saved.
 

organgrinder

Well-known member

Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

KJV

If you read further on in verses 9 and 10 you will see the place "works" has. Works are the RESULT of salvation that comes through faith in Jesus. Works do not earn salvation for that would negate the free gift. Pretty easy to understand. We don't pay for one iota of salvation. Jesus paid it all as the old hymn goes.

Bob was not looking out for Bob. He simply quoted scripture that folks like BOJ have such great difficulty understanding because of its simplicity. Here's another scripture for you to chew on:

Rom 10:9-13
if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
NKJV

So where is the "works" requirement for salvation? There is none. Good works proceed AFTER salvation as prompted by the Holy Spirit.
 
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Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
bob if salvation is never to earned.

Then what of man?
The answer is JESUS. HE "Earned it".

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

"Works" are the natural RESULT of saving FAITH, but don't contribute to salvation.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
"Works" are the natural RESULT of saving FAITH, but don't contribute to salvation.
Funny how that doesn't work. 50% of our prison inmates are Christians. And those are the ones that were caught. We don't go to jail for adultery or coveting and most of the time, not for bearing false witness which some of our critics do here on this board all the time. So, I guess it isn't "natural".
 

organgrinder

Well-known member
Funny how that doesn't work. 50% of our prison inmates are Christians. And those are the ones that were caught. We don't go to jail for adultery or coveting and most of the time, not for bearing false witness which some of our critics do here on this board all the time. So, I guess it isn't "natural".
Again, the Mormon doesn't get it. The scripture quoted (Ephesians 2:8-10) is absolutely true. People are not always faithful and sin, sometimes seriously enough to land in prison. That does not negate the scripture. and as for bearing false witness, well, you be the man there. You still haven't addressed what I reported you for. I asked for specifics on what you said I said. I received nothing in return. Probably because you have me on ignore. However, others will see this post.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Funny how that doesn't work. 50% of our prison inmates are Christians.

<sigh>
And here we go again....
The Mormon poster KNOWS that Mormonism is bankrupt, and that he can't possibly even attempt to defend it, so he does what Mormons ALWAYS do, tries to attack Christianity instead.

Here are all the problems with your false claim:

1) You have provided ZERO evidence for your claim.

2) Any stats gathered on religion would be based on nothing more than "self-identification", which doesn't accurately reflect TRUE conversion to a particular religion.

3) Since Christianity teaches that we are to obey authority and not break the law, any such "stat" would be completely irrelevant anyway.

4) The "Mormon" religion in prisons would be included in the "Christian" number, so that doesn't necessarily help you. And remember, Mormons keep reminding us that Mormonism is "the fastest growing religion in the WORLD!!!!!".

5) Any such stat ignores the existence of "prison ministries", and that many convert to Christianity AFTER they are incarcerated, not that they were incarcerated "because" they were Christian.

6) It has nothing to do with "Mormonism", so even if it were accurate (hint: it's not), it's OFF-TOPIC here.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
1) You have provided ZERO evidence for your claim.
You have zero evidence for your claim. :rolleyes:

Look it up. It's not that hard. I can't post non-LDS links on this forum. Look up religions affiliation of inmates in US prisons. in 2011, 50.6% were protestant, 14.5% were Catholic, 10.6% no religious pref, 9.4% Muslim, 5% unknown, 2.7% Native American spirituality, 1.7% Jewish, 1.7% Pagan earth-based, 1.5% other non-Christian religions, 0.9% Buddhist, 0.8% Mormon and so on.

The majority, by far, belongs to a religion that teaches them that they are saved and that they don't have to do anything to be saved. That is what protestants teach, isn't it. Just believe (which is something. It certainly is not nothing) and you'll be saved.

The point is, you all teach a doctrine that is false. Obviously, you have to do something or you can't be saved. Salvation, therefore, is works based. If you can't stay out of jail, then how do you expect to get into heaven?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
0.8% Mormon and so on.

Well, If your "stats" are true, and Mormons end up in prison, then that must mean MORMONISM must be false, mustn't it?

I mean, we can't have any blatant double standards, right?

The majority, by far, belongs to a religion that teaches them that they are saved and that they don't have to do anything to be saved. That is what protestants teach, isn't it. Just believe (which is something. It certainly is not nothing) and you'll be saved.

Well, that's enough of a misunderstanding of Christianity as to be a complete misrepresentation. But since discussion of Christianity is OFF-TOPIC here, I won't elaborate further.

And yes, everyone can see your futile attempt to try to derail discussion away from Mormonism, to try to attack Christianity instead. That alone demonstrates the sheer bankruptcy of Mormonism.

The point is, you all teach a doctrine that is false. Obviously, you have to do something or you can't be saved. Salvation, therefore, is works based.

Well no.
Do we have to go over it again, and quote all the Biblical passages Mormons IGNORE because Mormonism CONTRADICTS the Bible?

Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;

And since Mormons love quoting the ECF's, as if they had some sort of "authority", let's see what they taught:

“And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works we have have wrought in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
- Clement, First Epistle to the Corinthians, Ch. 32 (AD 99)

“Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks only for faith. The mystery was enacted at that time for our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation, should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ.”
- Marius Victorinus, Epistle to the Galatians,1.3.7 (AD 356)

“Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us in righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is (or has been) justified solely by faith in Christ.
- Basil of Caesarea, Homilia XX, Homilia De Humilitate (AD 379)

“God has decreed that a person who believes in Christ can be saved without works. By faith alone he receives the forgiveness of sins.”
- Ambrosiaster, on 1 Cor 1:14b (AD 384)

They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return, but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God.”
- Ambrosiaster, on Rom. 3:24 (AD 384)

“The patriarch Abraham himself before receiving circumcision had been declared righteous on the score of faith alone; before circumcision, the text says, Abraham believed God, and credit for it brought him to righteousness.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on Genesis, 27.7 (AD 407)

“See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the ‘law of faith’? It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 7, vs. 27 (AD 407)

For a person who had no works, to be justified by faith, was nothing unlikely.  But for a person richly adorned with good deeds, not to be made just from hence, but from faith, this is the thing to cause wonder, and to set the power of faith in a strong light.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 8, Rom. 4:1-2 (AD 407)

God justifies by faith alone” (“Deus ex sola fide justificat”)
- Jerome, Epestolam Ad Romanos, Caput X, v.3 (AD 420)

“What Paul meant was that no one obtains the gift of justification on the basis of merits derived from works performed beforehand, but they gift of justification comes only from faith.
- Bede, Cited from the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture (ed. Gerald Bray), NT, vol. 11, p. 31.(AD 735)

"But in addition that you might believe also this, that sins are given to you individually, this is the testimony, which the Holy Spirit bestows in your heart, saying, Your sins are forgiven by you. For the Apostle thinks thus, that man is gratuitously justified through faith."
- Bernard of Clairvaux, First Sermon on the Annunciation (AD 1153)

“Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone.”
- Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (AD 1274)

If you can't stay out of jail, then how do you expect to get into heaven?

Tell that to the apostle Paul.
Tell that to John Bunyan.
Tell that to the Albertan Pastor who was jailed for preaching in his church.

The fact of the matter is that "jail" has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether a religion is Biblical or not. You're grasping at straws here.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
They think they are.

Bingo!
Just because someone "thinks they are" of a religion, doesn't mean that they really are.
That's YOUR false assumption.
And one of the reasons your original argument is nonsense.

The inmates claim as to what their religion is.

So if they all claimed to be Mormon, that would make Mormonism false, right?
That's really your argument?

So, according to you, he's saved.

Nope.
It's Mormonism that teaches that Hitler is "saved" (to the "telestial" kingdom of glory).
Christians believe he's condemned to hell.

But the point is that just because someone CLAIMS something, doesn't make it so.
 
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