What degree of obedience qualifies for salvation?

rossh

Well-known member
Often, Mormons are judged by having a high bar of requirements needed for "salvation".

To Christians I ask, what commandments are being referred to in this verse?

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments - 1 John 2:3

In other words, at what point can I look at a commandment and say "Nah, I don't need to keep this one."
Or, "I'd feel guilty if I was ACTUALLY expected to keep the commandment of (fill in the blank)."
"There's no way I can keep the commandment of (fill in the blank)."

Shall we continue still in sin, that grace may abound? Roman 6:1

For Mormons, the only real encompassing commandment required for eternal life is enduring in faith in Jesus Christ by taking upon His name. And if you have real faith, all other necessary commandments will be kept, and by so doing, the Holy Ghost will give us further guidance.

2 Ne 31:
14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

16 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.

17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

And I imagine some will ask "Well, what about temple ordinances?"
And I would reply that's a fulfillment of prophecy (Micah 4:1-2) and "going on to perfection" (Heb 6:1). And by "perfection" I'm NOT referring to being "sinless", but rather complete, full grown, and fully embracing the entirety of Christ's character - essentially resulting in Charity (1 Cor. 13). Learning and Covenanting to laws of Obedience, Sacrifice, the Gospel, Chastity, and Consecration help us do that.
that is a load manmade decrees to make their " followers " fearful of them..
 

rossh

Well-known member
Logic agrees. Which tells me, that you don't understand Eph at all.
nah, the work has already been done and finished as the Messiah declared already before His death.


28 After this, knowing that all things had accomplished their purpose, Yeshua, in order to fulfill the words of the Tanakh, said, "I'm thirsty."

29 A jar full of cheap sour wine was there; so they soaked a sponge in the wine, coated it with oregano leaves and held it up to his mouth.

30 After Yeshua had taken the wine, he said, "It is accomplished!" And, letting his head droop, he delivered up his spirit.

31 It was Preparation Day, and the Judeans did not want the bodies to remain on the stake on Shabbat, since it was an especially important Shabbat. So they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies removed.

32 The soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man who had been put on a stake beside Yeshua, then the legs of the other one;

33 but when they got to Yeshua and saw that he was already dead, they didn't break his legs.

34 However, one of the soldiers stabbed his side with a spear, and at once blood and water flowed out.

35 The man who saw it has testified about it, and his testimony is true
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Logic agrees. Which tells me, that you don't understand Eph at all.
ONE of us doesn't, for sure. WHO CARES about "theological logic"??? All God's Chilluns gots "theologies".

SInce all your "Righteousness", is nothing but "Filthy RAGS" (Isa 64:6) in God's sight. how it is possible that you salvation could be based on them???? It couldn't matter less what your "Logic" claims.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Logic agrees. Which tells me, that you don't understand Eph at all.

Okay... So if you think you understand Eph. so well, and you claim we "don't understand Eph at all", then why don't YOU exegete the passage for us, and explain to us what YOU think it means, and then we can discuss it.

Because otherwise, we can't get ANYTHING from you, and so your presumptuous claims and dismissals are worthless.

Ready?
Set?
GO!

Eph. 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph. 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph. 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph. 2:4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph. 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
Eph. 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph. 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph. 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Often, Mormons are judged by having a high bar of requirements needed for "salvation".

You seem to think there is "a high bar of requirements need for salvation".
(And I'm curious as to why you put "salvation" in scare quotes...?)

The BIBLE is very clear on what we need to do to be saved:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

2Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

To Christians I ask, what commandments are being referred to in this verse?

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments - 1 John 2:3

Well, I think you are ripping this verse out of context.

Please note that it does NOT say,

"by this we know that we are saved, if we keep his commandments."
It doesn't say that.

It says,
"by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments."

Keeping the commandments is evidence that we KNOW Him.
We can only know him if we are saved.

So "keeping the commandments doesn't "cause salvation".
Salvation is what CAUSES "keeping the commandments".

Keeping the commandments are the FRUITS of salvation, not the "requirements" for salvation.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We are not saved "by" works, or "of" works.
But we are saved FOR good works.

In other words, at what point can I look at a commandment and say "Nah, I don't need to keep this one."

Well, since Mormons LOVE quoting C.S. Lewis, I'll let him answer your question:

"Now we cannot, in that sense, discover our failure to keep God's law except by trying our very hardest (and then failing). Unless we really try, whatever we say there will always be at the back of our minds the idea that if we try harder next time we shall succeed in being completely good. Thus, in one sense, the road back to God is a road of moral effort, of trying harder and harder. But in another sense it is not trying that is ever going to bring us home. All this trying leads up to the vital moment at which you turn to God and say, 'You must do this. I can't.' "
-- Lewis, C. S.. Mere Christianity . CrossReach Publications. Kindle Edition.

This correlates perfectly with Rom. 3:10-20, and Gal. 3:24-25.

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Shall we continue still in sin, that grace may abound? Roman 6:1

Um, question....

Why do you quote Rom. 6, while IGNORING Rom. 3-5?!
Don't you believe in reading passages in order?

Nobody is saying, "we can ignore the commandments".
We are saying (Rom. 3:19-20), "the commandments don't save us".

And besides, Rom. 6 is referring to people who are ALREADY saved, so it is not saying, "how to become saved".

For Mormons, the only real encompassing commandment required for eternal life is enduring in faith in Jesus Christ by taking upon His name. And if you have real faith, all other necessary commandments will be kept, and by so doing, the Holy Ghost will give us further guidance.

Well, the true gospel is similar.
If you have faith, then that means you've been regenerated.
And if you've been regenerated, then you've been given a new nature that WANTS to obey the commandments.

But again, we don't obey the commandments TO be saved.
We obey the commandments BECAUSE we are ALREADY saved.

They are "fruits", not "requirements".
 

rossh

Well-known member
ONE of us doesn't, for sure. WHO CARES about "theological logic"??? All God's Chilluns gots "theologies".

SInce all your "Righteousness", is nothing but "Filthy RAGS" (Isa 64:6) in God's sight. how it is possible that you salvation could be based on them???? It couldn't matter less what your "Logic" claims.
Wow! That is called hitting the nail on the head, as the saying goes.
 

Nic

Well-known member
Often, Mormons are judged by having a high bar of requirements needed for "salvation".

To Christians I ask, what commandments are being referred to in this verse?

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments - 1 John 2:3

In other words, at what point can I look at a commandment and say "Nah, I don't need to keep this one."
Or, "I'd feel guilty if I was ACTUALLY expected to keep the commandment of (fill in the blank)."
"There's no way I can keep the commandment of (fill in the blank)."

Shall we continue still in sin, that grace may abound? Roman 6:1

For Mormons, the only real encompassing commandment required for eternal life is enduring in faith in Jesus Christ by taking upon His name. And if you have real faith, all other necessary commandments will be kept, and by so doing, the Holy Ghost will give us further guidance.

2 Ne 31:
14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

16 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.

17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

And I imagine some will ask "Well, what about temple ordinances?"
And I would reply that's a fulfillment of prophecy (Micah 4:1-2) and "going on to perfection" (Heb 6:1). And by "perfection" I'm NOT referring to being "sinless", but rather complete, full grown, and fully embracing the entirety of Christ's character - essentially resulting in Charity (1 Cor. 13). Learning and Covenanting to laws of Obedience, Sacrifice, the Gospel, Chastity, and Consecration help us do that.
Perfect obedience of Christ himself.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
ONE of us doesn't, for sure. WHO CARES about "theological logic"??? All God's Chilluns gots "theologies".

SInce all your "Righteousness", is nothing but "Filthy RAGS" (Isa 64:6) in God's sight. how it is possible that you salvation could be based on them???? It couldn't matter less what your "Logic" claims.
Our acts of obedience may be worth filthy rags in God's sight, but to the individuals striving to be better they are considered precious gems by which we know God's grace is working through us.
---
The power that comes when man is obedient to God's laws: Faith is power.
"We understand that the principle of power which existed in the bosom of God, by which the worlds were framed, was faith; and that it is by reason of this principle of power existing in the Deity, that all created things exist; so that all things in heaven, on earth, or under the earth exist by reason of faith as it existed in HIM.
"Had it not been for the principle of faith the worlds would never have been framed neither would man have been formed of the dust. It is the principle by which Jehovah works, and through which he exercises power over all temporal as well as eternal things. Take this principle or attribute-for it is an attribute-from the Deity, and he would cease to exist." (Smith, in Lectures on Faith 1:15-16.)

Those who have faith demonstrate great power. Discuss Moses 7:13; Joshua 10:12-14; Moroni 7:37-38; and others.

To have faith we must know certain things.
"Let us here observe, that three things are necessary in order that any rational and intelligent being may exercise faith in God unto life and salvation.
"First, the idea that he actually exists.
"Secondly, a correct idea of his character, perfections, and attributes.
"Thirdly, an actual knowledge that the course of life which he is pursuing is according to his will. For without an acquaintance with these three important facts, the faith of every rational being must be imperfect and unproductive; but with this understanding it can become perfect and fruitful, abounding in righteousness, unto the praise and glory of God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." (Smith, in Lectures on Faith 3:2-5.)

An assurance of God's approbation comes from a willingness to sacrifice. In other words, we must do whatever God requires of us.
"Let us here observe, that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation; for, from the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things. It was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life; and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has for the truth's sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice because he seeks to do his will, he does know, most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering, and that he has not, nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life.
"But those who have not made this sacrifice to God do not know that the course which they pursue is well pleasing in his sight; for whatever may be their belief or their opinion, it is a matter of doubt and uncertainty in their mind; and where doubt and uncertainty are there faith is not, nor can it be." (Smith, in Lectures on Faith 6:7, 12.)

The Doctrine and Covenants clearly teaches that through obedience to our covenants with God (to his laws) we gain power (see D&C 130:20-21; 82:4-10; 54:3-6; 97:8; 103:5-8).
---

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. (Moroni 10:32)
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Okay... So if you think you understand Eph. so well, and you claim we "don't understand Eph at all", then why don't YOU exegete the passage for us, and explain to us what YOU think it means, and then we can discuss it.
I tell you what, why don't you tell me the difference between the works of v 9 and the works of v 10? Correlate those with the works mentioned in v 11. The very fact that you stopped at v 9 tells me you all don't understand eph 2 at all.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Our acts of obedience may be worth filthy rags in God's sight, but to the individuals striving to be better they are considered precious gems by which we know God's grace is working through us.
I couldn't have said it better myself. I believe Orthodox Christians also believe this, but they insist that it's not necessary, important, but not necessary. The difference between our theology and theirs is that we believe it is necessary and important. In fact, its necessity is to the point that if one doesn't strive, one cannot be saved.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I tell you what, why don't you tell me the difference between the works of v 9 and the works of v 10? Correlate those with the works mentioned in v 11. The very fact that you stopped at v 9 tells me you all don't understand eph 2 at all.

Thank you for proving that Mormons HATE explaining what Scripture actually means, and DON'T UNDERSTAND what Scripture really means.

Over and over again, Mormons REFUSE to share what they believe, and constantly try to derail threads to talk about what "Christians" believe, because they are EMBARRASSED to try to defend bankrupt Mormonism.

If you want to continue after vv. 8-9 with v.10, or even, 11, 12, or ever go to 18 or further, you are perfectly free to do so.

I tell you what, why don't you tell me the difference between the works of v 9 and the works of v 10? Correlate those with the works mentioned in v 11. The very fact that you stopped at v 9 tells me you all don't understand eph 2 at all.

I'm perfectly willing to answer that IN THE APPROPRIATE FORUM, which doesn't derail away from Mormonism. Ask my in "apologetics", and I will answer you.

But YOU were asked here.
YOU were the one who claimed someone else's interpretation is "wrong".
In order to be able to do that, you need to have some sort of "different" understanding. I'm not sure why you feel the need to HIDE your understanding.

If you can't give an interpretation of Eph. 2, then you have NO BASIS for saying someone else's view is wrong. At least they have a view. You obviously DON'T.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I couldn't have said it better myself. I believe Orthodox Christians also believe this, but they insist that it's not necessary, important, but not necessary. The difference between our theology and theirs is that we believe it is necessary and important. In fact, its necessity is to the point that if one doesn't strive, one cannot be saved.

Mormons continue to IGNORE the Bible and CONTRADICT it:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

2Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I tell you what, why don't you tell me the difference between the works of v 9 and the works of v 10? Correlate those with the works mentioned in v 11. The very fact that you stopped at v 9 tells me you all don't understand eph 2 at all.

At your request, I exegeted Eph. 2:8-13 in the "Apologetics" forum.
The thread can be found here:

Now it is YOUR turn.
Either exegete Eph. 2:8-10 (or Eph. 2:8-11, or Eph. 2:8-13, or go as far as you wish), or else admit that Mormonism is worthless and bankrupt, and Mormons don't even understand the Bible.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Thank you for proving that Mormons HATE explaining what Scripture actually means, and DON'T UNDERSTAND what Scripture really means.

Over and over again, Mormons REFUSE to share what they believe, and constantly try to derail threads to talk about what "Christians" believe, because they are EMBARRASSED to try to defend bankrupt Mormonism.

If you want to continue after vv. 8-9 with v.10, or even, 11, 12, or ever go to 18 or further, you are perfectly free to do so.
I don't see you explaining anything.
 
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