What degree of obedience qualifies for salvation?

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Mormons continue to IGNORE the Bible and CONTRADICT it:
:rolleyes:
Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Which works?
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
which works?
2Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
This has nothing to do with salvation. He is referring to the reason they were called.
Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
which works?
Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
which works?

I've addressed all of these before. There's no reason for me to address them repeatedly, you know the answer to these questions. You even mocked me about 2 Tim 1:9 like you did starting out this post. Rather than discuss the point, you feel it is necessary to post irrelevant scriptures (because there's not comment with them, just a quote with some highlighting).

If you are right and our salvation is no longer on the basis of works (assuming you mean any works) then everyone is saved regardless of what they do or what they believe, (unless they are Mormon, of course).
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I gave you three verses. exegete those. If you think they are in your other post, kindly cut and past them here.

I love it.
YOU never have to "exegete" anything.

You simply hold up the mirror, and always shift the burden of proof to us.

More proof that Mormonism is bankrupt.

Thank you for the admission.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Theo1689 said:
Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Which works?

1) Where does Eph. 2 "limit" any works in v. 9?

2) Why do you ASSUME that the "works" mentioned in v. 9 are limited to only some subset of "works"?

Theo1689 said:
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
which works?

1) Where does Tit. 3:5 "limit" any works in v. 5?

2) Why do you ASSUME that the "works" mentioned in v. 5 are limited to only some subset of "works"?

Theo1689 said:
2Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

This has nothing to do with salvation. He is referring to the reason they were called.

1) On what basis do you ASSUME that "not according to our works" is limited to "called" only, and not referring to BOTH "saved" and "called"?

2) On what basis do you ASSUME that it is not the case that both "called to a holy calling" and "not according to our works" modify "saved"?

3) I have the entire Greek New Testament diagrammed in BibleWorks, which is on my other computer. I'm tempted to look up this verse, as I have a feeling that their diagramming contradicts your irrational interpretation.

Theo1689 said:
Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
which works?

1) Where does Rom. 4:5-6 "limit" any works?

2) Why do you ASSUME that the "works" mentioned in v. 5-6 are limited to only some subset of "works"?

Theo1689 said:
Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
which works?

1) Where does Rom. 11:6 "limit" any works?

2) Why do you ASSUME that the "works" mentioned in v. 6 are limited to only some subset of "works"?

I've addressed all of these before.

Yeah, you keep making this FALSE CLAIM.
But you can never link to any post you've written that actually ADDRESSES them.
You simply run away from them.

If you are right and our salvation is no longer on the basis of works (assuming you mean any works) then everyone is saved regardless of what they do or what they believe,

Wrong again.
"not by works" does't mean "universal".

If I give my children gifts, that doesn't mean you will receive a gift from me.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
1) Where does Eph. 2 "limit" any works in v. 9?
You need to say it. All works? If that's the case, everyone is saved. Even the guy is beat the man's brains out. As long as he has faith that he'll be saved in Jesus Christ (notice there's an uptick from believing to having faith), then any work he does, he is saved.

But thank you for showing that you draw your conclusions from 4 or 5 words and not the context.
2) Why do you ASSUME that the "works" mentioned in v. 9 are limited to only some subset of "works"?
Because verse 10 says that there are good works that were prepared for us to do. Comparing to Romans 4, there was a specific work that the Jews boasted gave them an advantage. Do you know which work that is? Do you see a connection between boasting about works that save us between The Romans letter and the Ephesians letter? If I'm boasting about works there what works do you think I would be boasting about here? We only need to look to v 11 to see the very same works that were being boasted about in Romans.
1) Where does Tit. 3:5 "limit" any works in v. 5?
Why do you think I'm limiting the works mentioned here. I simply asked which works. Do you know? Or do you just want to assume I mean there is a limit? This fits in the same line with 2 Tim 1:9. These works have nothing to do with being saved but instead, the condition they were in when they were born again, but not everyone was like that. Paul was a persecutor of the church. We have, in Cornelius, an individual that God called from among the Gentiles to receive the blessings of the Gospel because of his good works. Not everyone was evil and or a persecutor before they received the gospel.
2) Why do you ASSUME that the "works" mentioned in v. 5 are limited to only some subset of "works"?
Why do you assume I assume that?

1) On what basis do you ASSUME that "not according to our works" is limited to "called" only, and not referring to BOTH "saved" and "called"?
because he said "called us to a holy calling". He's not talking about you. He's talking about Timothy and himself. That isn't us there, You are not in that group. It was in direct reference to Timothy's calling "do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord". He's not talking to you. This has nothing to do with our salvation. It has everything to do with Timothy's standing. The reference above is to Titus, not you or any other so-called Christian. The admonition to both was to preach good works.

Of course, if you probably think that they were supposed to teach good works are important but not necessary. Kind of like the good works in Eph 2:10. The problem is, if you aren't walking in the newness of life, right now, you aren't saved even though you think you are. Good works replace evil works. Light replaces darkness. If the fruits of your labors aren't good, then they must be bad. Only those who follow Christ can be saved. No amount of confessing belief or claiming one has faith is going to save anyone.
2) On what basis do you ASSUME that it is not the case that both "called to a holy calling" and "not according to our works" modify "saved"?
I didn't say they weren't saved. I said it has nothing to do with salvation. It had to do with Timothy's calling. Of course, he was saved, but if he commenced in evil works, he wouldn't be saved. And you'd probably say that he was never saved to begin with. But that's highly unlikely, after all, he did have a holy calling.

Here's the point, If Timothy committed adultery, boom, he's not saved anymore and he doesn't have a holy calling anymore. But you all don't believe that, do you? Timothy would need to repent, but it would be highly doubtful that he'd get that holy calling back.
1) Where does Rom. 4:5-6 "limit" any works?
V 9-11 The whole argument is about the works of the law. Abraham didn't have the law before he was given the law of circumcision which was in consequence of his faith demonstrated by... gets what, good works.

The point of the argument is made in v 12 "... are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised".
Isn't walking an action? Isn't walking in the footsteps of faith necessary? Again I ask you, What is faith? Correlate that to walking.
1) Where does Rom. 11:6 "limit" any works?
and again I ask which works? where do u see that I implied there was a limit? I believe this one is zero works and again it has nothing to do with salvation. this simply about people who believe like the 7000 who would not bend the knee to Baal that the prophet was not aware of.
2) Why do you ASSUME that the "works" mentioned in v. 6 are limited to only some subset of "works"?
why do you assume I believe that?
Yeah, you keep making this FALSE CLAIM.
But you can never link to any post you've written that actually ADDRESSES them.
You simply run away from them.
And you always accuse me of running away, but I'm still here.
Wrong again.
I know that's wrong, Our salvation is very much dependent on what we do.
"not by works" does't mean "universal".
So, where does the hair split? On what point is it no longer universal?
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Perfect obedience of Christ himself.
Going back to the qualifying verse:
"by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments" - 1 John 2:3

You're saying we know that we know Christ because Christ was perfectly obedient? Seems a little non-sequitur.
 

Nic

Well-known member
Going back to the qualifying verse:
"by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments" - 1 John 2:3

You're saying we know that we know Christ because Christ was perfectly obedient? Seems a little non-sequitur.
No. I'm answering your OP title question directly.
 

Nic

Well-known member
Hmmm...well, ok. Your answer doesn't make sense to me, but whatev.
So you do understand the difference between perfect and imperfect, right?
Perfect obedience was required of one Son of Man for salvation of mankind.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
So you do understand the difference between perfect and imperfect, right?
Perfect obedience was required of one Son of Man for salvation of mankind.
Ok. Fair enough. You've answered the question in the OP title, but the question in the body of the text was:
What commandments are being referred to in 1 John 2:3 "And this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments?"

How do you know that you know Him? What commandments do you keep as evidence?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
What commandments are being referred to in 1 John 2:3 "And this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments?"

1) Why do you ask that? It seems like a very weird and rigged question.

2) Did you notice that "knowing him" occurs PRIOR to "keeping his commandments"?

How do you know that you know Him?

Why is that any of your business?
Shouldn't you be more concerned about your OWN relationship with God?

What commandments do you keep as evidence?

Why is that any of your business?

What "commandments" do YOU think are being referenced?
I mean, this is the "Mormonism" forum, but Mormons NEVER want to answer questions, they only want to ask NON-Mormons questions.

Why are you so afraid to share what you believe?
Is it because you know that if you do, everyone will see that Mormonism is bankrupt and anti-Biblical?
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Going back to the qualifying verse:
"by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments" - 1 John 2:3

You're saying we know that we know Christ because Christ was perfectly obedient? Seems a little non-sequitur.
circular might be a more appropriate word.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
1) Why do you ask that? It seems like a very weird and rigged question.
If that is true, the whole Bible is rigged against our critics.
2) Did you notice that "knowing him" occurs PRIOR to "keeping his commandments"?
No.... Seriously? Does knowing him also occur prior to knowing him?
Why is that any of your business?
Why can't you answer the question? @Theo1689 it is the point of the discussion. If you don't want to participate in it then don't.
 

Nic

Well-known member
So, you're just going to ignore the verse and pretend it doesn't exist?
No. I'm my mother's caretaker. I'm tired much of the time and my mom has my 24hr 7day week after week care and I have been having my own issues of late. We are generally awake all night. So as I said I'm tired. If I get to it, I get to it. I still try to be reasonable and civil. Thank you for your reply.
 
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