What degree of obedience qualifies for salvation?

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Guarding the word of God over and against the likes of Mormons.
That's a complete rewrite of the passage. "if the commandments of hem we should [guard]" That doesn't say guard the word of God, period. I'm pretty sure what you just did was show how you all don't know him because if you did, you wouldn't be protecting the commandments, you would be keeping them. ;)
You asked, I answered.
Yes. You did. Impressive. But also clear evidence that your professors, or whoever you think taught you this, is clueless. The commandments are only a subset of God's word. Therefore, by your statement, you are protecting the commandments from us. But we aren't the ones trying to change them. you guys are. I'd say you guys are doing a horrible job of protecting them.
Guard is inclusive of keeping but you still haven't heard that despite telling you twice already.
Oh. I have heard and responded. You all are not keeping them or protecting them, you all are abusing them. Wolves among the sheep. Tell me, which commandment do you think you're protecting now?
I've already provided the Greek in the above in a previous post.

Think of it like this. Am I my brother's keeper?
Yes. You are. You're using the words of a murderer.
Keep in this sense is also like guard or watching over.
If you're going to keep it, then why change it?

Keep this in mind, Cain knew what happened to his brother, didn't he. He knew exactly what happened to his brother because he did it and used that as an excuse to cover his deed. If Abel and died by accident, then it seems likely that Cain could use that statement. This is the same abuse that our critics use on us.

Love one another as Jesus loved us. As you claim to guard the commandments, you break them. Rather than teach the commandments, you claim you are guarding the commandments against us when all I asked, all the OP asked was how does one know if they are keeping/guarding the commandments. Like Cain, you all are not guarding them at all, you all are breaking them. And the question remains unanswered.
I believe your method of questioning leaves little to be desired,
And your method of answering leaves a lot to be desired. ;)
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Logic is not phony, the theology of faith alone is phony.

SCRIPTURE:

Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;


ECF's:

“And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works we have have wrought in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
- Clement, First Epistle to the Corinthians, Ch. 32 (AD 99)

“Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks  only for faith. The mystery was enacted at that time for our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation, should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ.”
- Marius Victorinus, Epistle to the Galatians,1.3.7 (AD 356)

“Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us in righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is (or has been) justified solely by faith in Christ.”
- Basil of Caesarea, Homilia XX, Homilia De Humilitate (AD 379)

“God has decreed that a person who believes in Christ can be saved without works. By faith alone he receives the forgiveness of sins.”
- Ambrosiaster, on 1 Cor 1:14b (AD 384)

“They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return, but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God.”
- Ambrosiaster, on Rom. 3:24 (AD 384)

“The patriarch Abraham himself before receiving circumcision had been declared righteous on the score of faith alone; before circumcision, the text says, Abraham believed God, and credit for it brought him to righteousness.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on Genesis, 27.7 (AD 407)

“See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the ‘law of faith’? It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 7, vs. 27 (AD 407)

“For a person who had no works, to be justified by faith, was nothing unlikely. But for a person richly adorned with good deeds, not to be made just from hence, but from faith, this is the thing to cause wonder, and to set the power of faith in a strong light.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 8, Rom. 4:1-2 (AD 407)

God justifies  by faith alone” (“Deus ex sola fide justificat”)
- Jerome, Epestolam Ad Romanos, Caput X, v.3 (AD 420)

“What Paul meant was that no one obtains the gift of justification on the basis of merits derived from works performed beforehand, but they gift of justification comes only from faith.”
- Bede, Cited from the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture (ed. Gerald Bray), NT, vol. 11, p. 31.(AD 735)

"But in addition that you might believe also this, that sins are given to you individually, this is the testimony, which the Holy Spirit bestows in your heart, saying, Your sins are forgiven by you. For the Apostle thinks thus, that man is gratuitously justified through faith."
- Bernard of Clairvaux , First Sermon on the Annunciation (AD 1153)

“Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone.”
- Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (AD 1274)
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
No, you didn't. But you were respond to a comment that wasn't directed to you either.
It's a public forum. If you want a private conversation, send a PM. :rolleyes:
This is the line I was getting to: "you're just going to ignore the verse and pretend it doesn't exist?"
And doesn't the verse say, "keep the commandments"? Why are you ignoring the subject-centric topic?
This question focuses on the behavior of the poster.
Yes. It does. It focuses on the poster's avoidance of the subject. Like you are doing now. It would, I think, be more productive if you focused on the subject as well. Right now, your focus has nothing to do with the subject, but mine did.
It's not talking about "keeping the commandments". This is how conversations go side ways:
Well, right now, this conversation is certainly sideways. What has any of this got to do with the subject?
1) Drop the subject
Which I didn't do as the OP specifically refers to this verse which I believe the poster ignored.
2) Focus on the behavior of others
Which is what you are doing right now.
3) Assume any statement from the opposing side has no bearing of truth
Irrelevant, I made no such assumption, but you are making one right now.
it's just spoken because of (negative attribute, thoughts, feelings, motives) of the opposing side.
I really have no idea what's going on on the other side. That's why I ask the question. It's called debate.
I'd love to, but everything I write is overshadowed by your contentious remarks
So, you're just complaining that I interrupted your flow of discussion. Get over it. It's a public forum.
Thats why I'm telling you to stop it.
You are in control of your conversations, you can have private ones if you like, but when you have them in the public forum, anyone can respond. Get used to it.
Just focus on the thought
I don't know what they are thinking. The only thing I can focus on is what they do. This is just simple common sense. :rolleyes:
 

Nic

Well-known member
That's a complete rewrite of the passage. "if the commandments of hem we should [guard]" That doesn't say guard the word of God, period. I'm pretty sure what you just did was show how you all don't know him because if you did, you wouldn't be protecting the commandments, you would be keeping them. ;)

Yes. You did. Impressive. But also clear evidence that your professors, or whoever you think taught you this, is clueless. The commandments are only a subset of God's word. Therefore, by your statement, you are protecting the commandments from us. But we aren't the ones trying to change them. you guys are. I'd say you guys are doing a horrible job of protecting them.

Oh. I have heard and responded. You all are not keeping them or protecting them, you all are abusing them. Wolves among the sheep. Tell me, which commandment do you think you're protecting now?

Yes. You are. You're using the words of a murderer.

If you're going to keep it, then why change it?

Keep this in mind, Cain knew what happened to his brother, didn't he. He knew exactly what happened to his brother because he did it and used that as an excuse to cover his deed. If Abel and died by accident, then it seems likely that Cain could use that statement. This is the same abuse that our critics use on us.

Love one another as Jesus loved us. As you claim to guard the commandments, you break them. Rather than teach the commandments, you claim you are guarding the commandments against us when all I asked, all the OP asked was how does one know if they are keeping/guarding the commandments. Like Cain, you all are not guarding them at all, you all are breaking them. And the question remains unanswered.

And your method of answering leaves a lot to be desired. ;)
Rhetoric aside and in brief...
Guard or watch over amplifies the intended meaning, it only changes your initial and problematic understanding; not what was intended. Go check out an amplified version and see for yourself. I've already shown you the Greek meaning of the translated word.
This is a discussion forum, no one keeps the commandments, when the topic of the law surfaces and finger pointing begins, everyone is guilty.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
It's more of spiritual knowledge.
No. It's more about what we do which is clearly stated in the verse you chose to use in your OP.

It's nice to see we are back on the topic at hand.
Is hope still present? Do they have charity? Can they sing the song of redeeming love? Read Alma 5.
Hope is one thing, doing nothing about that hope, is another. Hope comes through the discovery (which comes through the Holy Ghost) of what God has done for us. Once we have that hope, it is our responsibility to latch onto whatever brings that hope to fruition. You can cast a life ring to a drowning person and all the hope in the world won't save that person unless he acts on the hope that has been given him. He must latch onto the life ring or hope is useless.
That's very difficult to discern without more information.
No. It's not. Just read 1 John 2:3 again. Those who will be saved keep the commandments. There are 10 of them. But I would go a little further and say that God will accept the sacrifice no matter how small it is. Keep the commandments as you understand them. Some people say, if I smoke, I am killing myself and therefore if I stop smoking then I am obeying that commandment. Some people don't see it that way, they see it as the tobacco company is killing them or they don't see it as killing at all. Some people think that commandment only applies to murder. I'm not going to choose for you what you think the commandments mean, but if you follow what you believe to be true, I can't fault you - unless you decide that killing me isn't breaking the commandments, then I'd have an issue with what you believe the commandments mean.

So, it's not that difficult but it is something that each person must decide on what they believe and follow that belief, even if it's not perfect. As you learn more, then you are accountable for more and some people just won't do things they learn. It's just too much and they aren't willing to do it. I know a lot of people who don't believe their parents are honorable and therefore will not honor them. I know a lot of people who think Sunday is for their own benefit, and Jesus seems to agree, and they won't do anything to recognize that God set that day aside for holy purposes. It's just too much trouble. But they make a conscious decision when they discover it is a thread that helps them latch onto the hope given in Christ when or if they refuse to use it.

God is not trifling with us with these commandments. They are given to us for a purpose. They aren't for his pleasure to see what hoops we are willing to jump through, just for the sake of jumping through them. How many people have discovered that adultery is a train wreck waiting to happen? How many have discovered that extramarital sex creates more problems than it's worth. How many have turned to murder to solve those problems? Can it get worse? Yes. It can. These are not silly little absurd requirements. Keeping them leads to happiness. Breaking them leads to misery. But each and every days, modern Christians make decisions that lead to misery when they had a choice that if they followed Christ, that misery would have, could have, been avoided. To keep the commandments is to know God. That's the logic of 1 John 2:3. Guarding the commandments against Mormons isn't going to do anything but produce misery. Or, more correctly, guarding one's beliefs against the teachings of Mormonism is the surest path to misery.
Bottom line is, it's not for me to judge just because someone sins differently than I do. God looks upon our hearts. I leave it up to Him.
Then stop judging me.
Focusing on salvation by performing the act of saying "I believe" is still legalism.
Especially, when the people who do that judging also get to decide if you really mean it when you say it.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Ummm..ok. So the point of being on this board is...what???
For the LDS victim, trying to "Sell" their satanic heresy to Born Again Christians, there's no point at all. Hopefully the Christians here could at least plant the seeds of DOUBT - maybe get you to read the REAL word of God instead of Joe Smith's garbage.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
That's the thing, if salvation of any degree is conditional, there must be a law attached to it stating those conditions.
There is. That law is follow Christ. Period.
An act is still an act - a confession of faith, baptism, or sacrificing your first born son. If you think the "work" itself "saves" you, you're still thinking in terms of legalism.
The work itself does not save us, but if the work is not done, you can't be saved. Look at it this way, the work qualifies us for salvation. You cannot be saved if you are not baptized. PERIOD. But getting baptized does not save you. You cannot be exalted if you are not married, but getting married does not save you. It is necessary to enter through the door to get inside the house but you don't have to stay inside the house. You can leave any time you want. Only those in the house will be saved, metaphorically speaking.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Thus, I reject your statement on it's premise.
I don't know what you think you are rejecting, but my statement was made about those who know nothing of Jesus Christ. Those who know of Christ are responsible for a great deal more, but still, if good works will save the ignorant (ignorant until educated). It seems clear to me that John 5:28 and 29 are speaking about those who never heard Jesus or knew of him. If their works decide their fate, then how much more will our works decide ours already knowing of Him.

You can reject what I say, but the scriptures seem plain to me. Our critics and it seems now you, are bent on erasing the absolute necessity of our works which demonstrates our faith. It doesn't. works are both important and necessary. If one will not do the works that were before prepared for us to walk in, then that person cannot be saved.

If you know our theology, you have to know that there is a very legalistic requirement of our people for salvation. It is not had for a word. Those who are saved must do something different than those who are not.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Yet, as members of the Church, that's not something we need to worry about.
Apparently, you are not aware of the work for the dead. Since Baptism is a legal requirement, someone has to do it and the dead can't, so; I believe it is something that "as members of the Church" we need to worry about.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
For the LDS victim, trying to "Sell" their satanic heresy to Born Again Christians, there's no point at all.
Good to know. Heaven forbid anyone attempt using logic and reasoning against the groupthink of Christianity.
Hopefully the Christians here could at least plant the seeds of DOUBT - maybe get you to read the REAL word of God instead of Joe Smith's garbage.
Sounds like atheist reasoning in Christian clothing.
 
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