What did Christ have to do for us before he could die for us?

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
If we cannot know the reality of God while still being unbelievers, until we have been reconciled to Him through the truth we found in Christ, then in reality what did Christ also have to do for us before he died for us?
He had to be a PURE, and completely HUMAN SINLESS Sacrifice for SIN. Otherwise He wouldn't have been able to Cleanse us through His sacrificial death.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Do you think he had to believe he was going to die for the sins of believers?
Worse than THAT - Jesus had to accept is "Sonhood" by FAITH. Otherwise being "Tempted" by satan in the wilderness would have just been "Window dressing". If Jesus was "GOD ALMIGHTY" hiding in a "Man suit" pretending to be human, how could He EVER be Tempted WITH ANYTHING??? And yet he WAS tempted in every respect AS WE ARE. You DO remember that He sweat blood in the garden, don't you?? He'd already SAID He'd "go away" (and rebuked Peter for challenging that). I 'spect the GARDEN was the time when it was revealed that it was TIME to carry it out.
 
Last edited:

Tercon

Well-known member
Worse than THAT - Jesus had to accept is "Sonhood" by FAITH. Otherwise being "Tempted" by satan in the wilderness would have just been "Window dressing". If Jesus was "GOD ALMIGHTY" hiding in a "Man suit" pretending to be human, how could He EVER be Tempted WITH ANYTHING??? And yet he WAS tempted in every respect AS WE ARE. You DO remember that He sweat blood in the garden, don't you?? He'd already SAID He'd "go away" (and rebuked Peter for challenging that). I 'spect the GARDEN was the time when it was revealed that it was TIME to carry it out.
But he still had to believe that he had to die for the sins of humanity before he could die for humanity right?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
HE appears to have been aware of that by FAITH.

I believe that FAITH is the truth we believe in and about the reality of God. So, if you believe faith is something other than this, then maybe this is were the variant lies between us.
But if faith is just the truth we believe in and about the reality of God, then the truth Christ believed about God the Father is his faith. So, Christ's faith like ours is made up of the belief he has in the reality of God.
I don't think FAITH should be a mystery to any believer.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
I believe that FAITH is the truth we believe in and about the reality of God. So, if you believe faith is something other than this, then maybe this is were the variant lies between us.
But if faith is just the truth we believe in and about the reality of God, then the truth Christ believed about God the Father is his faith. So, Christ's faith like ours is made up of the belief he has in the reality of God.
I don't think FAITH should be a mystery to any believer.
Problem is that 90% of what the church CALLS faith, is nothing more than "Intellectual assent" which has no "Substance", and is "Evidence" of NOTHING.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
You're going to Wake up tomorrow. I assume that you "believe" that. that's a "Common belief". everybody "believes" that
No actually, I don't consider me waking tomorrow based on my belief at all. Rather, if I wake up tomorrow then it is His will and belief that I woke up and not my own at all.
Now, I know it is true that Trump is president today because I believe that Trump is president today.

You know Bob; belief is about the only thing that God recommends and commends humanity for. And outside of belief He doesn't impart or inform us of anything. You do realize this right?
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
No actually, I don't consider me waking tomorrow based on my belief at all.
But yet you DO BELIEVE that you'll wake up tommorow - even though you also know that your "belief" may be in error, and tomorrow won't come for you. There's no "Substance", or "Evidence" in your "belief".

"Belief" (intellectual assent) means nothing. FAITH is based exclusively on God's WORD TO YOU personally. THAT WORD has "Substance", and is your EVIDENCE of what you don't see. of course there's belief involved - BUT ONLY BECAUSE OF THE SOURCE.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
But yet you DO BELIEVE that you'll wake up tommorow - even though you also know that your "belief" may be in error, and tomorrow won't come for you. There's no "Substance", or "Evidence" in your "belief".

"Belief" (intellectual assent) means nothing. FAITH is based exclusively on God's WORD TO YOU personally. THAT WORD has "Substance", and is your EVIDENCE of what you don't see. of course there's belief involved - BUT ONLY BECAUSE OF THE SOURCE.

Bob, FAITH is just what we believe is true about the reality of God. So, FAITH is belief too.

Also, Bob if "Belief” is just “intellectual assent” of humans, then where do you believe our FAITH and belief originally came from, do you think our belief and FAITH just came from us?
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Bob, FAITH is just what we believe is true about the reality of God. So, FAITH is belief too.

Also, Bob if "Belief” is just “intellectual assent” of humans, then where do you believe our FAITH and belief originally came from, do you think our belief and FAITH just came from us?
A Human is INCAPABLE of having "Biblical Faith". A HUman can't do anything but "believe", but FAITH comes only from God's WORD TO YOU.

Mark 11:23 is a clue:

For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

So how do YOU propose to believe something (IN YOUR HEART, not your mind) WITHOUT DOUBTING - when you know that in your HEART, you doubt??

Abram wouldn't have set out to kill his Son (of promise) if he had DOUBT in his heart about God's word to him.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
A Human is INCAPABLE of having "Biblical Faith". A HUman can't do anything but "believe", but FAITH comes only from God's WORD TO YOU.
I agree. And that's why my FAITH and belief in the reality of God first came from Christ and not me at all, as I couldn't believe in the reality of God because of my unbelief and feelings. But it was in Christ first believing and dying for me (his promise to me) that imparted my FAITH and belief in the reality of God to me.
Mark 11:23 is a clue:

For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

So how do YOU propose to believe something (IN YOUR HEART, not your mind) WITHOUT DOUBTING - when you know that in your HEART, you doubt??
Bob we don't believe in or with our "hearts", rather we believe in and with our minds. But it is our "heart" that causes doubt, because our "hearts" represents our emotions. And it is our feelings that lead us astray.
Abram wouldn't have set out to kill his Son (of promise) if he had DOUBT in his heart about God's word to him.
Actually Bob it was Abram's emotions that got him to "set out to kill his Son", because he let his feelings get in the way of his belief he had in God's promises. God's promised him that Issacs would be the his heir and because of his feelings he had for Isaac that he doubted God's promise he made to Abram earlier.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
I agree. And that's why my FAITH and belief in the reality of God first came from Christ and not me at all, as I couldn't believe in the reality of God because of my unbelief and feelings. But it was in Christ first believing and dying for me (his promise to me) that imparted my FAITH and belief in the reality of God to me.

Bob we don't believe in or with our "hearts", rather we believe in and with our minds. But it is our "heart" that causes doubt, because our "hearts" represents our emotions. And it is our feelings that lead us astray.

Actually Bob it was Abram's emotions that got him to "set out to kill his Son", because he let his feelings get in the way of his belief he had in God's promises. God's promised him that Issacs would be the his heir and because of his feelings he had for Isaac that he doubted God's promise he made to Abram earlier.
And yet when when Abram left his caravan to go up the mountain, he told them the He, AND HIS SON would return.

Biblically "Heart Belief" is MUCH DEEPER than simple Intellectual assent.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
And yet when when Abram left his caravan to go up the mountain, he told them the He, AND HIS SON would return.

Biblically "Heart Belief" is MUCH DEEPER than simple Intellectual assent.
Bob he went up to the mountain because he doubted the promise God gave him earlier, as if Abram would have just believed the promise God made to Him earlier he would have just laughed at and with God and said "good try", but you have already promised me that Isaac is the promised heir and you cannot contradict yourself because you are God. "So you are just testing me". Abram's problem was that he didn't believe God's promise to begin with, because if he had; he wouldn't even bothered bringing Isaac to the mountain to begin with. So you are conflating belief and unbelief here, as it was Abram's unbelief that caused him to doubt and not his belief at all. Understand?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Um, nope... NOT "everybody" believes that.
In fact, you have to be pretty stupid to believe that.
well at least he will tell you what he believes, most here won't even do that. But rather prefer to hide in their ignorance instead.
 
Top