What did Jesus mean ?

Caroljeen

Well-known member
What did Jesus mean when he said:

John 14:9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
I think Jesus is talking about his own identity when he says "me". So if you see Jesus, the person of Jesus, the "me" of Jesus and not just his outer appearance then you are seeing the Father. The Father and Son have the same identity in different forms/modes of existence.
 

Fred

Well-known member
Oneness Pentecostals affirm (correctly) that the Father is invisible and does not have a body. Therefore, the Lord Jesus did not mean they were literally seeing the Father.
According to John 14:7 seeing means knowing. So in John 14:9 to see Jesus is to know the Father, because He (the Lord Jesus) is the perfect revelation of the Father (John 1:18).
Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: from the contact and influence of Christ to have come to see (know) God's majesty, saving purposes, and will, John 14:7, 9 (horaō, page 451).
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
Oneness Pentecostals affirm (correctly) that the Father is invisible and does not have a body. Therefore, the Lord Jesus did not mean they were literally seeing the Father.
According to John 14:7 seeing means knowing. So in John 14:9 to see Jesus is to know the Father, because He (the Lord Jesus) is the perfect revelation of the Father (John 1:18).
Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: from the contact and influence of Christ to have come to see (know) God's majesty, saving purposes, and will, John 14:7, 9 (horaō, page 451).
So these are the scriptures that come to my mind when I think about knowing God. They pertain more to what type of person God is. These are the attributes we see in Jesus. It's who Jesus is. And who Jesus is, is who the Father is. "I and my Father are one". The same exact person in different modes of existing. Jesus is the express image of God. He is the only visible representation of God that we will ever see, imo.
Doctrine is important but if we love God and love people, we will be like our Father.

Matt 11: 28-30 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

James 3: 17-18 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. 18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

1 John 4-7-11 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. [the self-sacrificial, other-oriented love of God]

Jeremiah 9:23-24 This is what the Lord says: “Let not the wise boast of their wisdom or the strong boast of their strength or the rich boast of their riches, 24 but let the one who boasts boast about this: that they have the understanding to know me, that I am the Lord, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight,” declares the Lord.
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
Oneness Pentecostals affirm (correctly) that the Father is invisible and does not have a body. Therefore, the Lord Jesus did not mean they were literally seeing the Father.
According to John 14:7 seeing means knowing. So in John 14:9 to see Jesus is to know the Father, because He (the Lord Jesus) is the perfect revelation of the Father (John 1:18).
As a trinitarian, why didn't Jesus answer Philip with an explanation of the trinity? If Jesus is the full revelation of God, why did he hold back from expressing the truth of who God is?

For instance, Jesus could have said, "When you see me, you've seen not only the Father but the Holy Spirit also. For we, Father, Son, and Spirit, are the one God of Israel. "
 

Fred

Well-known member
And who Jesus is, is who the Father is. "I and my Father are one". The same exact person in different modes of existing.
The "are" is plural so they are not the same Person.
This agrees with the plural pronouns used to describe them in John 14:23.
 

Fred

Well-known member
As a trinitarian, why didn't Jesus answer Philip with an explanation of the trinity? If Jesus is the full revelation of God, why did he hold back from expressing the truth of who God is?

For instance, Jesus could have said, "When you see me, you've seen not only the Father but the Holy Spirit also. For we, Father, Son, and Spirit, are the one God of Israel. "

In answer to your question: Jesus said many things not recorded (John 21:25), but for believers today we have the entire Bible where the Trinity is taught. Everything about who God is does not need to be in every verse or in every section of the Bible.
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
In answer to your question: Jesus said many things not recorded (John 21:25), but for believers today we have the entire Bible where the Trinity is taught. Everything about who God is does not need to be in every verse or in every section of the Bible.
I agree that everything about God doesn't need to be in every verse but surely the things that are truly salvational were not left out with the other things that were not recorded.

In the OT God was very clear in many places as to who he was. He told the Israelites that they knew him and were to be witnesses to the world of who the true God is. The Israelites never taught that God was 3 persons. Did God deceive his holy nation? Of course not.

The apostles who were with Jesus never clearly taught that God was 3 persons. Why would a God who wants to reveal himself and call out a people for his name to be his witnesses not be more precise in his language to us?

Added to this the doctrine of the trinity was developed and refined over hundreds of years. It looks like the early church didn't have clue either.

I believe God was precise both in the OT and the NT. When Jesus said "the one who has seen me has seen the Father", and " I and my Father are one", he was being very clear. The Jews knew exactly what he was saying and took up stones to kill him.
 

Fred

Well-known member
I believe God was precise both in the OT and the NT. When Jesus said "the one who has seen me has seen the Father", and " I and my Father are one", he was being very clear. The Jews knew exactly what he was saying and took up stones to kill him.
I've already addressed these passages above.

Jesus taught the Trinity. (Matthew 28:19)
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
I've already addressed these passages above.

Jesus taught the Trinity. (Matthew 28:19)
The name the apostles baptized in was Jesus. Jesus is the name of the Father, and the name of the Son, and the name of the Holy Spirit.

Using the 3 titles in one sentence isn't teaching the trinity. That would be too easy.
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
The "are" is plural so they are not the same Person.
This agrees with the plural pronouns used to describe them in John 14:23.
Father and Son are two modes of existence of the one God. Spirit and Human.
What other way would Jesus say it? (that I and my Father are one)

Obviously the Jews who heard him didn't reason among themselves "Oh, the Father and Son are not the same person, so we don't need to accuse Jesus of blasphemy and stone him. "
 

Fred

Well-known member
The name the apostles baptized in was Jesus. Jesus is the name of the Father, and the name of the Son, and the name of the Holy Spirit.

Using the 3 titles in one sentence isn't teaching the trinity. That would be too easy.

They are not the same Person. Each is preceded by the word "the" in Matthew 28:19. Whe one was baptized it was in the authroity of Jesus. What did He authorized? See John 20:28.
 

Fred

Well-known member
What other way would Jesus say it? (that I and my Father are one)

If Jesus is the Father He would have said, "I am the Father" or something like that. The Bible uses plurals in reference to both of them. This means they are not the same Person.
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
They are not the same Person. Each is preceded by the word "the" in Matthew 28:19. Whe one was baptized it was in the authroity of Jesus. What did He authorized? See John 20:28.
It's better to look at the baptismal examples in the book of Acts. They called on the name of the Lord Jesus. Jesus gave them authority to baptize calling on his name which invokes his Spirit.
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
If Jesus is the Father He would have said, "I am the Father" or something like that. The Bible uses plurals in reference to both of them. This means they are not the same Person.
Then is the son of man the Ancient of days? Aren't they two persons by your reckoning?
 

Fred

Well-known member
It's better to look at the baptismal examples in the book of Acts. They called on the name of the Lord Jesus. Jesus gave them authority to baptize calling on his name which invokes his Spirit.
The name/authority of Jesus they were baptized into was the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
 
Top