What do people who believe in L.A. preach to unbelievers?

[Alison Wonderland]

I’m curious what kind of gospel those who believe in Limited Atonement pass along to unbelievers. Since they claim that Jesus didn’t die for most people, then they can’t tell anyone that Jesus loves them without lying to most people since they don’t know the ones whom Jesus DOES love. That’s NOT good news for the world or for Calvinists either since it limits what they can say to people.

And since the word “gospel” means good news, then what else can they preach except ANOTHER gospel which would be this:

“I’m not sure but Jesus MIGHT have died for you. But since Jesus doesn’t love most people, then the chances that he loves you are slim. He might love you in some way, but not enough to pay for your sins. So don’t ask me. I’m as much in the dark about whether Jesus died for you as you are.”

Or at BEST, this: “If you seek salvation, then you will find it.”

That’s the MOST that people who believe in L.A. can say to people without telling them the bad news that Jesus hates most people.

Secondly, Jesus said “I know my sheep.” So since Jesus told his disciples to go into the towns of Israel and wipe the dust off their feet in the towns who reject him, then why did Jesus tell his disciples to go to those towns and preach to people for whom he KNEW he was NOT going to make atonement?

Did Jesus just want to PRETEND to the people in those towns that he loves and cares about their eternal souls? Or did he want his disciples to preach a different gospel to those towns than he preached to his elect? If so, then what was it?

Jesus said this about his crucifiers, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do” . Since Jesus could only ask God to forgive those for whom he died, then please give evidence that the Romans who crucified Jesus were God’s elect and how they felt later on about killing Jesus.

But those of us who KNOW that Jesus died for EVERYONE don’t have to worry about lying to ANYONE. We can just tell EVERYONE that Jesus loves them by dying for everyone on the cross. Those whom He has chosen to receive that gift by faith will be saved. (Jn 3:16, Mt. 22:14 Jesus already knows those whom he has chosen to believe him (his sheep) but man does NOT.

So that makes MAN accountable for rejecting the cross and shows that God is a loving God who offers mercy to ALL. So election has to do with BELIEF, not the atonement. There is no gospel if Jesus didn’t die for everyone, just bad news and ignorance about what to preach to people.

 

[ReverendRV]

I’m curious what kind of gospel those who believe in Limited Atonement pass along to unbelievers. Since they claim that Jesus didn’t die for most people, then they can’t tell anyone that Jesus loves them without lying to most people since they don’t know the ones whom Jesus DOES love. That’s NOT good news for the world or for Calvinists either since it limits what they can say to people.

And since the word “gospel” means good news, then what else can they preach except ANOTHER gospel which would be this:

“I’m not sure but Jesus MIGHT have died for you. But since Jesus doesn’t love most people, then the chances that he loves you are slim. He might love you in some way, but not enough to pay for your sins. So don’t ask me. I’m as much in the dark about whether Jesus died for you as you are.”

Or at BEST, this: “If you seek salvation, then you will find it.”

That’s the MOST that people who believe in L.A. can say to people without telling them the bad news that Jesus hates most people.

Secondly, Jesus said “I know my sheep.” So since Jesus told his disciples to go into the towns of Israel and wipe the dust off their feet in the towns who reject him, then why did Jesus tell his disciples to go to those towns and preach to people for whom he KNEW he was NOT going to make atonement?

Did Jesus just want to PRETEND to the people in those towns that he loves and cares about their eternal souls? Or did he want his disciples to preach a different gospel to those towns than he preached to his elect? If so, then what was it?

Jesus said this about his crucifiers, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do” . Since Jesus could only ask God to forgive those for whom he died, then please give evidence that the Romans who crucified Jesus were God’s elect and how they felt later on about killing Jesus.

But those of us who KNOW that Jesus died for EVERYONE don’t have to worry about lying to ANYONE. We can just tell EVERYONE that Jesus loves them by dying for everyone on the cross. Those whom He has chosen to receive that gift by faith will be saved. (Jn 3:16, Mt. 22:14 Jesus already knows those whom he has chosen to believe him (his sheep) but man does NOT.

So that makes MAN accountable for rejecting the cross and shows that God is a loving God who offers mercy to ALL. So election has to do with BELIEF, not the atonement. There is no gospel if Jesus didn’t die for everyone, just bad news and ignorance about what to preach to people.

There is only one Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

 

[Alison Wonderland]

There is only one Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

Which is...that God so loved the world that died for everyone or that God so hated the world that he only died for a few?

 

[Dizerner]

I’m curious what kind of gospel those who believe in Limited Atonement

Alison, be real with me here for a second.

If Jesus in actual fact died for only ONE elect person, and that person was YOU—wouldn't you feel special?!!

 

[Alison Wonderland]

Alison, be real with me here for a second.

If Jesus in actual fact died for only ONE elect person, and that person was YOU—wouldn't you feel special?!!

Yeah, conceited since Jesus died for everyone, not just me. Conceit is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

But that didn't answer any of the questions in my OP. What do you preach to unbelievers and why did Jesus tell his disciples to preach to people whom he KNEW were not His sheep?

 

[ReverendRV]

Which is...that God so loved the world that died for everyone or that God so hated the world that he only died for a few?

If you Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your Heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be Saved...

This Gospel is universal in scope, preached to every creature...

 

[Alison Wonderland]

Yeah, conceited since Jesus died for everyone, not just me. Conceit is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

But that didn't answer any of the questions in my OP. What do you preach to unbelievers and why did Jesus tell his disciples to preach to people whom he KNEW were not His sheep?

Once again, election has NOTHING to do with the atonement. It's about BELIEF, not those for whom Christ died. This is EASY since Jesus MADE it EASY in Jn 3:16. The "WHOSOEVER SHALL BELIEVE IN HIM" are God's elect, NOT the whole world. So again, those who believe in L.A. have no gospel to preach because it's NOT the gospel.

 

[ReverendRV]

Once again, election has NOTHING to do with the atonement. It's about BELIEF, not those for whom Christ died. This is EASY since Jesus MADE it EASY in Jn 3:16. The "WHOSOEVER SHALL BELIEVE IN HIM" are God's elect, NOT the whole world. So again, those who believe in L.A. have no gospel to preach because it's NOT the gospel.

Why not?

 

[Alison Wonderland]

If you Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your Heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be Saved...

This Gospel is universal in scope, preached to every creature...

No, Rom. 10:9-10 is for those who already BELIEVE that Jesus died for them because unbelievers do not believe in their hearts that Jesus is Lord. So it can only be said by those who ALREADY BELIEVE in Jesus.

But that doesn't answer my question of why Jesus told his disciples to preach to people whom Jesus KNEW were not his sheep. Was he just pretending that he was going to make atonement for them?

 

[Alison Wonderland]

Why not?

I just answered that question, Reverend. So answering it again won't do any good.

 

[ReverendRV]

Cleats - by ReverendRV

Ephesians 6:15 NKJV; and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

This verse describes one of the six pieces from the Armor of God. You ask, “What is the Armor of God?” It is the supply of God to the Christian, specifically our armament for spiritual warfare. The Armor is comprised of ‘the Belt of Truth, the Breastplate of Righteousness, the Gospel of Peace, the Shield of Faith, the Helmet of Salvation, and the Sword of the Spirit’. You ask, “Spiritual warfare?? What in the world are you talking about?” ~ God created the world and Mankind fell into Sin by breaking the one and only Law God had given them at the time. Later on, God gave his chosen people Israel the Ten Commandments by making a Covenant with them through the Prophet Moses. The people said this about the Ten Commandments; “And if we are careful to obey all this Law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness." But the bad news is that they could not earn this Righteousness because they were born Sinners. Do you think you could do better than they did? Have you ever told a Lie? Have you kept God’s Sabbath? Have you ever Coveted?

What you need is access to the Armor of God. If Israel actually did keep their word and upheld the Ten Commandments, they would be Righteous. But in all history there have only been three people who ever had a real chance of doing this; Adam, Eve, and Jesus Christ. ~ Adam and Eve Struck out; when the third person Strikes out in the bottom of the 9th inning, it’s over. But Jesus came off the bench and won the game with a walk off home run! He kept the Ten Commandments all his Life and never Sinned; he earned the human Righteousness that Israel promised God. If you are on his team, even though you strike out, you’re a winner; you will not go to Hell for your many Sins. ~ This is how you get on Christ’s team; by the Grace of God through Faith in Jesus as your Lord and Risen Savior, apart from any good thing you can do to win the game. Place Faith in Jesus and his shed blood will cover your Sins. Repent and find a local Church that will help you be thoroughly equipped to win…

The Armor of God helps us to stand against the evil one. Preachers often teach the Armor of God is part of our defense, but I want to tell you about its use for going on the offense. The Gospel of Peace is like a pair of sports shoes; we’re blessed to be able and stand firm, like a Golfer wearing his spikes. But the Gospel of Peace is more like a pair of cleats; made for offense. The Bible asks us how beautiful are the feet of the person who ‘goes’ to preach. When you put on the Armor of God you are now better equipped to play the game and steal a base. We find that the Gospel isn’t just for the Lost but is also for the person who has been Saved for years! ~ Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stands in the path of Sinners nor sits in the seat of the scornful. The Gospel of Peace does no good Offensively if all you do is stand. Do you put on the Armor of God and just stand around? Blessed is the man who doesn't stand on the wayside of a Sinners path solely for the purpose of people watching…

Hebrews 12:1 NIV; Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

 

[civic]

Which is...that God so loved the world that died for everyone or that God so hated the world that he only died for a few?

Where is the gospel mentioned in that passage ?

 

[zerinus]

Alison, be real with me here for a second.

If Jesus in actual fact died for only ONE elect person, and that person was YOU—wouldn't you feel special?!!

Not if my brother, sister, nephew, grandpa, next door neighbor etc. who were all better, kinder, more virtuous, more honourable, more honest etc. than me were not died for. You are focusing on the wrong thing. The question is not the fate of me, you, or Alison; but the character of God as taught in the Bible. Does it match the character description of God in the Bible to arbitrarily save one and damn another, for no other reason than (supposedly) his own “glory” (which would be no “glory” at all, but a blight on his character)? That theology does not glorify God, and does not match the character description of God given in the Bible.

 

[ReverendRV]

No, Rom. 10:9-10 is for those who already BELIEVE that Jesus died for them because unbelievers do not believe in their hearts that Jesus is Lord. So it can only be said by those who ALREADY BELIEVE in Jesus.

But that doesn't answer my question of why Jesus told his disciples to preach to people whom Jesus KNEW were not his sheep. Was he just pretending that he was going to make atonement for them?

Welcome to the Forum by the way...

Jesus told his Disciples to preach to people whom he knew would not receive them; and to shake the dust off of their feet afterwards. Why is this not the same?

 

[Alison Wonderland]

Not if my brother, sister, nephew, grandpa, next door neighbor etc. who were all better, kinder, more virtuous, more honourable, more honest etc. than me were not died for. You are focusing on the wrong thing. The question is not the fate of me, you, or Alison; but the character of God as taught in the Bible. Does it match the character description of God in the Bible to arbitrarily save one and damn another, for no other reason than (supposedly) his own “glory” (which would be no “glory” at all, but a blight on his character)? That theology does not glorify God, and does not match the character description of God given in the Bible.

Unforutnately, that disagrees with total depravity which is the belief that NO one is good and NO one is righteous; (Rom. 3:11, Mk. 10:18). That's in your own theology. lol. So my neighbors are NOT better than anyone nor am I better than anyone else. It's also a gospel of WORKS rather than GRACE in God's sovereign election. Grace is UNMERITED FAVOR on people who DO NOT DESERVE IT which is the whole human race. (Rom. 11:32, Mk. 10:18, Rom. 3:11).

So Calvinists are now beginning to contradict their OWN theology which they have to do in order to believe in L.A. It is therefore unwise to engage in conversation with people who not only contradtc Scripture, they end up contradicting their OWN theology. They just engage in confusion and talk tangles.

 

[Alison Wonderland]

Unforutnately, that disagrees with total depravity which is the beliefe that NO one is good and NO one is righteous; (Rom. 3:11, Mk. 10:18). That's in your own theology. lol. So my neighbors are NOT better than anyone nor am I better than anyone else. It's also a gospel of WORKS rather than GRACE in God's sovereign election. Grace is UNMERITED FAVOR on people who DO NOT DESERVE IT which is the whole human race. (Rom. 11:32, Mk. 10:18, Rom. 3:11).

So Calvinists are now beginning to contradict their OWN theology which they have to do in order to believe in L.A. It is therefore unwise to engage in conversation with people who not only contradtc Scripture, they end up contradicting their OWN theology. They just engage in confusion and talk tangles.

Oh, and yes, it is the character of God to do anything he wants because as Rom. 9:21 says, he is the potter who has the right to mold out of the same lump of clay some for noble purposes and some for common use. It's amazing how easily people accept the right of CEO's or government leaders to choose who they want as servants in their kingdom but not our CREATOR? How wrong they are because He absolutely does.

 

[Theo1689]

Not if my brother, sister, nephew, grandpa, next door neighbor etc. who were all better, kinder, more virtuous, more honourable, more honest etc. than me were not died for.

So your relatives aren't sinners?

Not only are you acting like God is obligated to die for sinners, but you seem to be saying those He chooses to save need to be chosen according to their "virtue" (which is basically salvation by "works").

I'm glad this thread was started, as it emphasizes a very important point that many people seem to be blind to. God is not obligated to save ANYONE. Period. We are all sinners, and none of us are deserving of eternal life, and God would be perfectly just to condemn the whole lot of us.

You are focusing on the wrong thing. The question is not the fate of me, you, or Alison; but the character of God as taught in the Bible. Does it match the character description of God in the Bible to arbitrarily save one and damn another, for no other reason than (supposedly) his own “glory” (which would be no “glory” at all, but a blight on his character)?

So you're God's judge, that you can judge whether He has a "blight" or not?
I don't think so.

You remind me of that adage:

"In the beginning, God created man in His own image.
Then man returned the favour and created a god in his own image."

God can damn anyone (and everyone) He desires.
Because that is God's justice toward sinners.
It also demonstrates His attributes of wrath and power (Rom. 9:22).

And God can save anyone (and everyone) He deserves.
Because that is God's mercy and grace.
And since Christ died for these sinners, God's justice is maintained.
Their sins are paid for.

That theology does not glorify God,

Of course it glorifies God.

and does not match the character description of God given in the Bible.

Of course it matches His character.

 

[Simpletruther]

Which is...that God so loved the world that died for everyone or that God so hated the world that he only died for a few?

Why not stick to the scriptures?

He died that those believing would have eternal life.

 

[Dizerner]

Why not stick to the scriptures?

Because we should always assume our position is "sticking" with the Scriptures...

 

[Alison Wonderland]

Why not stick to the scriptures?

He died that those believing would have eternal life.

So why did he offer forgiveness to his crucifiers, Simpletruther?

And again, what did he tell his disciples to preach to the people in those towns whom he KNEW he wasn't going to die for since his disciples were supposed to wipe the dust off their feet as a testament to those TOWNS?

He couldn't tell them to confess Him as Lord if he knew he wasn't going to make atonement for them.

He couldn't tell them to believe in him if he wasn't going to make atonement for them.

Nor could he tell them to confess their sins and repent if there would be no atonement made for them.

So Jesus could not have told his disciples to tell them ANYTHING about receiving atonement for their sins if Jesus KNEW he wasn't going to die for them...UNLESS Jesus was a deceiver or people who believe in L.A. are WRONG.

Well I got news for you, Jesus is NOT a deceiver, so it's those who preach limited atonement who are preaching a false gospel. But they will never admit EDIT so again, engaging in conversation with them will just be listening to their tangled EDIT So I'll just pray for them instead.