What do people who believe in L.A. preach to unbelievers?

[zerinus]

Unforutnately, that disagrees with total depravity which is the belief that NO one is good and NO one is righteous; (Rom. 3:11, Mk. 10:18). That's in your own theology. lol. So my neighbors are NOT better than anyone nor am I better than anyone else. It's also a gospel of WORKS rather than GRACE in God's sovereign election. Grace is UNMERITED FAVOR on people who DO NOT DESERVE IT which is the whole human race. (Rom. 11:32, Mk. 10:18, Rom. 3:11).

So Calvinists are now beginning to contradict their OWN theology which they have to do in order to believe in L.A. It is therefore unwise to engage in conversation with people who not only contradtc Scripture, they end up contradicting their OWN theology. They just engage in confusion and talk tangles.

I am not a Calvinist! I am agreeing with your OP. Calvinists here would be outraged if you confused me as a Calvinist! LOL! I do not accept any of the theological premises of Calvinism, including T of 🌷 and all the rest.

 

[Alison Wonderland]

We proclaim the BIBLICAL gospel, of course.
Just like Jesus preached.

0) All are dead in trespass and sins.
1) God is merciful.
2) God sent His Son to die for sin.
3) All who believe will be saved.
4) Praise God!

THAT is the gospel.



Neither Jesus nor his Apostles EVER went up to strangers and told them that "God loves you, and Christ died for you". So why should we preach something Jesus NEVER preached?

Gal. 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.



Yes, we're limited in what we can say to people in that we're not allowed to lie, and we're not allowed to proclaim a false gospel.



Sadly, I'm not sure you actually understand the gospel.
You want to teach false things, like "God loves EVERYONE", and "Jesus died for EVERYONE", "and it's SO EASY to be saved!" And since your teachings promise things to people that God never promised, our true gospel looks "worse" or "less" by comparison.

To truly understand the gospel, one first has to recognize their status as an evil sinner. That's why God gave us the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic Law, before He gave us Christ. That's why Paul begins Romans with the Law and sin (Rom. 1-3), before he presents grace and the atonement (Rom. 4-5).

You're looking at a cup which is half full, and complaining that it is half empty.
We should be looking at a cup that is completely empty, and then realizing (through faith) that our cup overfloweth with His grace.



I don't know ANY Calvinist who believes or teaches "Jesus hates most people".

But yes, you're right (unknowingly)....

BEFORE anyone is ready to hear the gospel, they FIRST need to be aware of their sin (Rom. 3:19-20, Gal. 3:24-25). The Law and our sin is the reason for our NEED of the gospel.

So yes, we have to hear (and accept) "the bad news" (that God hates sinners (Ps. 5:5, Mal. 1:2-3)), before they are ready to hear the "good news", the "Gospel".



Why do we preach the gospel to people who might not be saved?
Many reasons:

1) God commanded us to preach the gospel to EVERYONE, not just the elect. We have no right to disobey God just because we don't think His command was good and just.

2) We don't know who the elect are. So we have to preach the gospel to everyone (just like the seed was sown on pathways and rocky ground as well as the prepared soil), knowing that the elect will eventually respond positively to it.

3) The preaching of the gospel is not simply to collect believers. I believe it also glorifies God in its proclamation, regardless of who hears it.

4) I love God, and I love His gospel, and I want to proclaim that awesome act all over the world.



<sigh>
Is that actually a sincere and charitable question?
Jesus doesn't "pretend" anything.



No, we proclaim the same gospel Christ did.
YOU are the one preaching a different gospel when you go up to people falsely telling them, "Jesus died for YOU", something Jesus and the apostles NEVER did.



Where does the Bible teach, "Jesus could only ask God to forgive those for whom he died"?
Chapter and verse, please?



Since I don't believe they were necessarily elect, I don't see any reason why I should give evidence for something I don't believe.



Calvinists don't lie to everyone.
We don't know who the elect are, and we don't pretend they do.
But anyone who tells people that Jesus died for "everyone", is proclaiming falsehood.



Jesus never proclaimed that.
So you're proclaiming a false gospel.



Why did Christ die for someone God hasn't chosen to receive that gift?
You never seem to be able to answer that very simple question.



God is a loving God who SHOWS mercy to some.
You seem to be trying to OBLIGATE God.
Why does God have to act according to your whims?

And where does the Bible ever use the phrase, "offer mercy"?
Chapter and verse, please?



Well, there's a correlation, certainly.
And there's a correlation to all three.

The Father elects a chosen people.
Christ died for them (the atonement).
The Holy Spirit regenerates them, and gives them faith (belief).

Praise God!



Of course there is!
And I've never heard anything less grateful.

That's like being angry at your parents for giving you a birthday gift, since they didn't give birthday gifts to all your friends. Your parents aren't obligated to give gifts to your friends, and if that is your only concern when you receive a gift, well, that's just ungrateful.

It's simply a FALSE statement to say that Jesus did NOT die for those who do NOT deserve it since those are the precisely the people for whom Jesus DID die!!! ALL of us! THAT is the gospel, Theo. NONE of us deserves mercy!

Even PAUL said he was the WORST of all sinners yet Jesus not only GAVE him MERCY he made him an apostle!

"For ALL have fallen short of the glory of God.'

So it's a FALSE statement to say that Jesus does NOT OFFER MERCY to those who do NOT deserve it.

2 Co. 5:14-15, "He died for ALL (everyone including unbelievers) that THOSE WHO LIVE (those chosen to BELIEVE Him who are God's elect) should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again." EASY, very, very, very, very easy.

 

[Alison Wonderland]

I am not a Calvinist! I am agreeing with your OP. Calvinists here would be outraged if you confused me as a Calvinist! LOL! I do not accept any of the theological premises of Calvinism, including T of 🌷 and all the rest.

I apologize. I thought you hade made the comment that I should feel special if Jesus only died for me which is what Calvinists would say. Sometimes it's confusing for me to see who said what. I hope you'll forgive me. 🥰

 

[Theo1689]

It's simply a FALSE statement to say that Jesus did NOT die for those who do NOT deserve it since those are the precisely the people for whom Jesus DID die!!!

No, actually, it's not a false statement.

Sammy Sinner is a sinner.
Tommy Transgressor is a sinner.

Neither of them deserve salvation.

Christ died for Sammy, but not for Tommy.

So it is TRUE that Christ did not die for someone (Tommy) who did not deserve it.

ALL of us! THAT is the gospel, Theo.

No, that is a FALSE gospel.
Christ did NOT die for "ALL of us" (unless you are limiting "us" to the elect).

Even PAUL said he was the WORST of all sinners yet Jesus not only GAVE him MERCY he made him an apostle!

And?

"For ALL have fallen short of the glory of God.'

Amen!
(You're not really telling me anything I don't already know.)

So it's a FALSE statement to say that Jesus does NOT OFFER MERCY to those who do NOT deserve it.

No, it is not.
There are many who will spend eternity in hell, whom Christ did not show mercy to on the cross.

(And once again, I know I'm a stickler for Scripture, but where does the Bible EVER use the phrase, "offer mercy"? Chapter and verse, please?)

(I love how you BOLD phrases that aren't even in the Bible!)

2 Co. 5:14-15, "He died for ALL (everyone including unbelievers) that THOSE WHO LIVE (those who BELIEVE who are God's elect) should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again." EASY, very, very, very, very easy.

Sorry, my Bible does NOT say, "(everyone including unbelievers)".
Why do you feel the need to CHANGE the Bible to try to support your false teachings?
(Or did I just answer my own question?)

Sorry, but you are simply IGNORING the CONTEXT of this passage.

2Cor. 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Paul is referring to a SPECIFIC group, "us", whom God has given "the Spirit as a guarantee". Has God given EVERYONE the Holy Spirit? Of course not! So this passage is NOT about "everyone" universally, only the elect, who have been (or will be) saved, and given the Holy Spirit.

2Cor. 5:6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

See all those "we" 's and that "our" there? Paul is STILL talking about that specific group, "us", who has been given the Holy Spirit.

2Cor. 5:11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others. But what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience. 12 We are not commending ourselves to you again but giving you cause to boast about us, so that you may be able to answer those who boast about outward appearance and not about what is in the heart. 13 For if we care beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

So the "all" in "one has died for "all", is referring to all of the "us", who Paul has been talking about in this ENTIRE CHAPTER.

 

[TomFL]

Oh, and yes, it is the character of God to do anything he wants because as Rom. 9:21 says, he is the potter who has the right to mold out of the same lump of clay some for noble purposes and some for common use. It's amazing how easily people accept the right of CEO's or government leaders to choose who they want as servants in their kingdom but not our CREATOR? How wrong they are because He absolutely does.

don't overlook the fact that like in Jer 18

Jeremiah 18:1-12 (KJV)
1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

The clay was marred

The passage is not about God before creation selecting some for reprobation and some for salvation nit based upon anything they might do

BTW if one reads the Jeremiah account that clay was pretty wilfull

 

[AllOfGrace]

I’m curious what kind of gospel those who believe in Limited Atonement pass along to unbelievers. Since they claim that Jesus didn’t die for most people, then they can’t tell anyone that Jesus loves them without lying to most people since they don’t know the ones whom Jesus DOES love. That’s NOT good news for the world or for Calvinists either since it limits what they can say to people.

And since the word “gospel” means good news, then what else can they preach except ANOTHER gospel which would be this:

“I’m not sure but Jesus MIGHT have died for you. But since Jesus doesn’t love most people, then the chances that he loves you are slim. He might love you in some way, but not enough to pay for your sins. So don’t ask me. I’m as much in the dark about whether Jesus died for you as you are.”

Or at BEST, this: “If you seek salvation, then you will find it.”

That’s the MOST that people who believe in L.A. can say to people without telling them the bad news that Jesus hates most people.

Secondly, Jesus said “I know my sheep.” So since Jesus told his disciples to go into the towns of Israel and wipe the dust off their feet in the towns who reject him, then why did Jesus tell his disciples to go to those towns and preach to people for whom he KNEW he was NOT going to make atonement?

Did Jesus just want to PRETEND to the people in those towns that he loves and cares about their eternal souls? Or did he want his disciples to preach a different gospel to those towns than he preached to his elect? If so, then what was it?

Jesus said this about his crucifiers, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do” . Since Jesus could only ask God to forgive those for whom he died, then please give evidence that the Romans who crucified Jesus were God’s elect and how they felt later on about killing Jesus.

But those of us who KNOW that Jesus died for EVERYONE don’t have to worry about lying to ANYONE. We can just tell EVERYONE that Jesus loves them by dying for everyone on the cross. Those whom He has chosen to receive that gift by faith will be saved. (Jn 3:16, Mt. 22:14 Jesus already knows those whom he has chosen to believe him (his sheep) but man does NOT.

So that makes MAN accountable for rejecting the cross and shows that God is a loving God who offers mercy to ALL. So election has to do with BELIEF, not the atonement. There is no gospel if Jesus didn’t die for everyone, just bad news and ignorance about what to preach to people.

In a nutshell...
Proclaim John 3:16...followed by an invitation/call: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved....Followed by a promise: Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

 

[Simpletruther]

So why did he offer forgiveness to his crucifiers, Simpletruther?

And again, what did he tell his disciples to preach to the people in those towns whom he KNEW he wasn't going to die for since his disciples were supposed to wipe the dust off their feet as a testament to those TOWNS?

He couldn't tell them to confess Him as Lord if he knew he wasn't going to make atonement for them.

He couldn't tell them to believe in him if he wasn't going to make atonement for them.

Nor could he tell them to confess their sins and repent if there would be no atonement made for them.

So Jesus could not have told his disciples to tell them ANYTHING about receiving atonement for their sins if Jesus KNEW he wasn't going to die for them...UNLESS Jesus was a deceiver or people who believe in L.A. are WRONG.

Well I got news for you, Jesus is NOT a deceiver, so it's those who preach limited atonement who are preaching a false gospel. But they will never admit EDIT so again, engaging in conversation with them will just be listening to their tangled EDIT So I'll just pray for them instead.

We are to preach repentance (which means preaching to men they they are sinners under Gods wrath) and faith toward Christ who died so that all who believe in him will be saved, and was raised from the dead to justify those who believe.

 

[Simpletruther]

Because we should always assume our position is "sticking" with the Scriptures...

But he paraphrased scripture two different ways, neither one accurate. The answer was right there in the scripture.

 

[Beloved Daughter]

Once again, election has NOTHING to do with the atonement. It's about BELIEF, not those for whom Christ died. This is EASY since Jesus MADE it EASY in Jn 3:16. The "WHOSOEVER SHALL BELIEVE IN HIM" are God's elect, NOT the whole world. So again, those who believe in L.A. have no gospel to preach because it's NOT the gospel.

Allison the fact that you say things, doesn't mean you are correct.

John 3:16 is not the whole of the gospel. It has a context.

and

What do you think Jesus meant when he said this in John 6:44

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

 

[Oldsaint24]

I’m curious what kind of gospel those who believe in Limited Atonement pass along to unbelievers. Since they claim that Jesus didn’t die for most people, then they can’t tell anyone that Jesus loves them without lying to most people since they don’t know the ones whom Jesus DOES love. That’s NOT good news for the world or for Calvinists either since it limits what they can say to people.

And since the word “gospel” means good news, then what else can they preach except ANOTHER gospel which would be this:

“I’m not sure but Jesus MIGHT have died for you. But since Jesus doesn’t love most people, then the chances that he loves you are slim. He might love you in some way, but not enough to pay for your sins. So don’t ask me. I’m as much in the dark about whether Jesus died for you as you are.”

Or at BEST, this: “If you seek salvation, then you will find it.”

That’s the MOST that people who believe in L.A. can say to people without telling them the bad news that Jesus hates most people.

Secondly, Jesus said “I know my sheep.” So since Jesus told his disciples to go into the towns of Israel and wipe the dust off their feet in the towns who reject him, then why did Jesus tell his disciples to go to those towns and preach to people for whom he KNEW he was NOT going to make atonement?

Did Jesus just want to PRETEND to the people in those towns that he loves and cares about their eternal souls? Or did he want his disciples to preach a different gospel to those towns than he preached to his elect? If so, then what was it?

Jesus said this about his crucifiers, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do” . Since Jesus could only ask God to forgive those for whom he died, then please give evidence that the Romans who crucified Jesus were God’s elect and how they felt later on about killing Jesus.

But those of us who KNOW that Jesus died for EVERYONE don’t have to worry about lying to ANYONE. We can just tell EVERYONE that Jesus loves them by dying for everyone on the cross. Those whom He has chosen to receive that gift by faith will be saved. (Jn 3:16, Mt. 22:14 Jesus already knows those whom he has chosen to believe him (his sheep) but man does NOT.

So that makes MAN accountable for rejecting the cross and shows that God is a loving God who offers mercy to ALL. So election has to do with BELIEF, not the atonement. There is no gospel if Jesus didn’t die for everyone, just bad news and ignorance about what to preach to people.

Atonement is limited to only those whose names are written in the Book of Life. Everybody is not written in the Book.

 

[TomFL]

Allison the fact that you say things, doesn't mean you are correct.

John 3:16 is not the whole of the gospel. It has a context.

and

What do you think Jesus meant when he said this in John 6:44

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Until the cross when

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

In any case verse 44 is followed by

John 6:45 (KJV)
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

those who are drawn and come will be raised up on the last day

 

[TomFL]

Atonement is limited to only those whose names are written in the Book of Life. Everybody is not written in the Book.

Not according to scripture

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Exported from Logos Bible Software, 4:16 AM April 21, 2021.

 

[1Thess521]

I’m curious what kind of gospel those who believe in Limited Atonement pass along to unbelievers. Since they claim that Jesus didn’t die for most people, then they can’t tell anyone that Jesus loves them without lying to most people since they don’t know the ones whom Jesus DOES love. That’s NOT good news for the world or for Calvinists either since it limits what they can say to people.

And since the word “gospel” means good news, then what else can they preach except ANOTHER gospel which would be this:

“I’m not sure but Jesus MIGHT have died for you. But since Jesus doesn’t love most people, then the chances that he loves you are slim. He might love you in some way, but not enough to pay for your sins. So don’t ask me. I’m as much in the dark about whether Jesus died for you as you are.”

Or at BEST, this: “If you seek salvation, then you will find it.”

That’s the MOST that people who believe in L.A. can say to people without telling them the bad news that Jesus hates most people.

Secondly, Jesus said “I know my sheep.” So since Jesus told his disciples to go into the towns of Israel and wipe the dust off their feet in the towns who reject him, then why did Jesus tell his disciples to go to those towns and preach to people for whom he KNEW he was NOT going to make atonement?

Did Jesus just want to PRETEND to the people in those towns that he loves and cares about their eternal souls? Or did he want his disciples to preach a different gospel to those towns than he preached to his elect? If so, then what was it?

Jesus said this about his crucifiers, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do” . Since Jesus could only ask God to forgive those for whom he died, then please give evidence that the Romans who crucified Jesus were God’s elect and how they felt later on about killing Jesus.

But those of us who KNOW that Jesus died for EVERYONE don’t have to worry about lying to ANYONE. We can just tell EVERYONE that Jesus loves them by dying for everyone on the cross. Those whom He has chosen to receive that gift by faith will be saved. (Jn 3:16, Mt. 22:14 Jesus already knows those whom he has chosen to believe him (his sheep) but man does NOT.

So that makes MAN accountable for rejecting the cross and shows that God is a loving God who offers mercy to ALL. So election has to do with BELIEF, not the atonement. There is no gospel if Jesus didn’t die for everyone, just bad news and ignorance about what to preach to people.

you don't need to know how an airplane works to get onboard:


This is what I say:
Jesus saves all who believe in Him
or if you believe then you are saved.

that was easy

 

[Manfred]

they can’t tell anyone that Jesus loves them without lying to most people

Why would they be lying to most people?
If it is a lie, then surely the truth is that Christ did not die for most people?

So which is it... You cannot have it both ways.

 

[TomFL]

Why would they be lying to most people?
If it is a lie, then surely the truth is that Christ did not die for most people?

So which is it... You cannot have it both ways.

What was stated was

they can’t tell anyone that Jesus loves them without lying to most people

A denial of God's universal Love is a hyper Calvinist position

 

[Manfred]

What was stated was

they can’t tell anyone that Jesus loves them without lying to most people

A denial of God's universal Love is a hyper Calvinist position

I know what was stated.
You cannot tell anyone that Jesus loves them, because that would be a lie, as most people will not be saved.

God is love and He has chosen objects of wrath for His glory. How is that a denial of God's universal love?

Saying that God does not create vessels of wrath for His glory is misrepresenting God.

 

[TomFL]

I know what was stated.
You cannot tell anyone that Jesus loves them, because that would be a lie, as most people will not be saved.

God is love and He has chosen objects of wrath for His glory. How is that a denial of God's universal love?

Saying that God does not create vessels of wrath for His glory is misrepresenting God.

So you believe love can be expressed only soteriologically

As i noted that is a hyper Calvinist notion

In any case your claim is denied by scripture

John 3:16 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You ask how is God's universal love denied after you just stated

You cannot tell anyone that Jesus loves them, because that would be a lie ?

You just denied it

 

[Manfred]

So you believe love can be expressed only soteriologically

As i noted that is a hyper Calvinist notion

In any case your claim is denied by scripture

John 3:16 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You ask how is God's universal love denied after you just stated

You cannot tell anyone that Jesus loves them, because that would be a lie ?

You just denied it

I only posted what the other poster said.
It is not my problem that you try to pit scripture against scripture.

Why do you not believe that God created some as objects of wrath for His glory? You rather prefer to ignore it.

The evidence being that you will merely ignore what is actually stated, paste the same scriptures again, close your ears and go, lalalalalalalalalal

 

[TomFL]

I only posted what the other poster said.
It is not my problem that you try to pit scripture against scripture.

Why do you not believe that God created some as objects of wrath for His glory? You rather prefer to ignore it.

The evidence being that you will merely ignore what is actually stated, paste the same scriptures again, close your ears and go, lalalalalalalalalal

Sorry any such evidence is a figment of your imagination

Rather it has been many of the scriptures I have posted which go ignored

Where is the evidence God unconditionally created some to be objects of wrath ?

And if you were merely quoting someone else where are the quote marks and/or identifying marks ?

How would anyone know they are not your sentiments

so do you deny God's universal love ?


John 3:16 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Manfred]

Sorry any such evidence is a figment of your imagination

Rather it has been many of the scriptures I have posted which go ignored

Where is the evidence God unconditionally created some to be objects of wrath ?

And if you were merely quoting someone else where are the quote marks and/or identifying marks ?

How would anyone know they are not your sentiments

so do you deny God's universal love ?


John 3:16 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Go back and see that I quoted the other poster in quotes. Stop lying about me.

Read the book of Romans for confirmation that God chooses objects of wrath, and then stop misrepresenting God and scripture.