What do people who believe in L.A. preach to unbelievers?

T

TomFL

Guest
Go back and see that I quoted the other poster in quotes. Stop lying about me.

Read the book of Romans for confirmation that God chooses objects of wrath, and then stop misrepresenting God and scripture.

I Read the book of romans and have addressed it many times

it does not teach what you claim

If you think otherwise show where it is specifically stated that God unconditionaslly reprobated some to be eternally lost

and you never did answer the question

so do you deny God's universal love ?


John 3:16 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

BTW there are no quotes here

You cannot tell anyone that Jesus loves them, because that would be a lie, as most people will not be saved.

God is love and He has chosen objects of wrath for His glory. How is that a denial of God's universal love?

Saying that God does not create vessels of wrath for His glory is misrepresenting God.

So who is lying ?
 

Manfred

Well-known member
I Read the book of romans and have addressed it many times

it does not teach what you claim

If you think otherwise show where it is specifically stated that God unconditionaslly reprobated some to be eternally lost

and you never did answer the question

so do you deny God's universal love ?


John 3:16 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

BTW there are no quotes here

You cannot tell anyone that Jesus loves them, because that would be a lie, as most people will not be saved.

God is love and He has chosen objects of wrath for His glory. How is that a denial of God's universal love?

Saying that God does not create vessels of wrath for His glory is misrepresenting God.

So who is lying ?
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.
All that shows is God raised him to the position of pharaoh

It says nothing at all about God unconditionally selecting him for reprobation before the foundation of the earth

That must be read into the passage
 

Manfred

Well-known member
That must be read into the passage
Nonsense

You are reading into the passage.

For what reason was the then raised into the position.
Your denial is astounding.
18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Nonsense

You are reading into the passage.

For what reason was the then raised into the position.
Your denial is astounding.
18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?
You provided nothing at all that states God unconditionally reprobated pharaoh before the foundation of the world

Your claim is based on eisegesis

Mercy is not receiving what one deserves

Hardening is based on stubbornness

neither help you position

and if you read further in the text you will find out who received mercy and who didn't and why

Romans 9:30-32 (KJV)
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

as for your question it was answered in the text

Romans 9:17 (KJV)
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

nothing is stated in it about unconditional reprobation from before the foundation of the earth
 

Manfred

Well-known member
You provided nothing at all that states God unconditionally reprobated pharaoh before the foundation of the world

Your claim is based on eisegesis

Mercy is not receiving what one deserves

Hardening is based on stubbornness

neither help you position

and if you read further in the text you will find out who received mercy and who didn't and why

Romans 9:30-32 (KJV)
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

as for your question it was answered in the text

Romans 9:17 (KJV)
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

nothing is stated in it about unconditional reprobation from before the foundation of the earth
Again. For what purpose was Pharaoh raised up as per the context.

You have no leg to stand on as you try bitterly hard to change the context
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Again. For what purpose was Pharaoh raised up as per the context.

You have no leg to stand on as you try bitterly hard to change the context
Didn't you read ?

Your question was answered

It is bolded below

You provided nothing at all that states God unconditionally reprobated pharaoh before the foundation of the world

Your claim is based on eisegesis

Mercy is not receiving what one deserves

Hardening is based on stubbornness

neither help you position

and if you read further in the text you will find out who received mercy and who didn't and why

Romans 9:30-32 (KJV)
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

@@@@@@@@@@@@as for your question it was answered in the [email protected]@@@@@@@

Romans 9:17 (KJV)

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

nothing is stated in it about unconditional reprobation from before the foundation of the earth

you claim about having no leg to stand on is totally gratuitous as you have done nothing at all to prove your claim
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Didn't you read ?

Your question was answered

It is bolded below

You provided nothing at all that states God unconditionally reprobated pharaoh before the foundation of the world

Your claim is based on eisegesis

Mercy is not receiving what one deserves

Hardening is based on stubbornness

neither help you position

and if you read further in the text you will find out who received mercy and who didn't and why

Romans 9:30-32 (KJV)
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

@@@@@@@@@@@@as for your question it was answered in the [email protected]@@@@@@@

Romans 9:17 (KJV)

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

nothing is stated in it about unconditional reprobation from before the foundation of the earth

you claim about having no leg to stand on is totally gratuitous as you have done nothing at all to prove your claim
You answered nothing. My question was for what reason.
How did God show His might through Faraoh. You are so desperate you keep ignoring the context, thereby showing your ignorance.

But then again Tom, ignorance is bliss
 
T

TomFL

Guest
You answered nothing. My question was for what reason.
How did God show His might through Faraoh. You are so desperate you keep ignoring the context, thereby showing your ignorance.

But then again Tom, ignorance is bliss
It funny how you can say what you say when

You still provided nothing at all that states God unconditionally reprobated pharaoh before the foundation of the world

Your claim is based totally on eisegesis

Romans 9:30-32 (KJV)
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

You asked for what reason when the reason is clearly in the text and it was given to you

and highlighted

@@@@@@@@@@@@as for your question it was answered in the [email protected]@@@@@@@

Romans 9:17 (KJV)

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

nothing is stated in it about unconditional reprobation from before the foundation of the earth

Now you want to move the goalpost and add

"How did God show His might through Faraoh. You are so desperate you keep ignoring the context, thereby showing your ignorance."

which was not a part of the original question and does nothing at all to further your position

Its still eisegesis

The events surrounding the exodus i.e. the parting of the red sea , the miracles would certainly serve to make know the name of God and make known his power

Your claim above is as empty as the non existent proof you provided for your position

and ad hominin and rhetoric are not a substitute for facts
 

Manfred

Well-known member
It funny how you can say what you say when

You still provided nothing at all that states God unconditionally reprobated pharaoh before the foundation of the world

Your claim is based totally on eisegesis

Romans 9:30-32 (KJV)
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

You asked for what reason when the reason is clearly in the text and it was given to you

and highlighted

@@@@@@@@@@@@as for your question it was answered in the [email protected]@@@@@@@

Romans 9:17 (KJV)

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

nothing is stated in it about unconditional reprobation from before the foundation of the earth

Now you want to move the goalpost and add

"How did God show His might through Faraoh. You are so desperate you keep ignoring the context, thereby showing your ignorance."

which was not a part of the original question and does nothing at all to further your position

Its still eisegesis

The events surrounding the exodus i.e. the parting of the red sea , the miracles would certainly serve to make know the name of God and make known his power

Your claim above is as empty as the non existent proof you provided for your position

and ad hominin and rhetoric are not a substitute for facts
Still avoiding and sticking your head in the ground.

You cannot read in context and pretend Romans 9 gives a different context.

What is the context.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
Romans 9:17‭-‬19 ESV
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Still avoiding and sticking your head in the ground.

You cannot read in context and pretend Romans 9 gives a different context.

What is the context.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
Romans 9:17‭-‬19 ESV
This is funny

You still have not provided a single thing that show God unconditionally reprobated Pharaoh before the foundation of the earth

Your idea of unconditional election to salvation crashes on the rock of scripture

Romans 9:30-32 (KJV)
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Israel; was not unconditionally cuttoff nor were those who obtained to righteousness unconditionally selected

further Israel's condition was not without remedy and based on their own unbelief

Romans 11:19-24 (KJV)
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

God determined he would bless all nations through the seed of Abraham and men would be made righteous through faith. Those who came according to the plan of God received mercy those who opposed God's plan would not receive mercy (Pharoah and Isreal )

You need to stop talking about context as it does not support you

Your views are based on eisegesis
 

zerinus

Well-known member
they can’t tell anyone that Jesus loves them without lying to most people
Why would they be lying to most people?
If it is a lie, then surely the truth is that Christ did not die for most people?

So which is it... You cannot have it both ways.
The OP has not framed her question very well. The gospel is literally the "good news" of the redemptive work of Jesus Christ. That is the literal meaning of it. It is the "good news" that Jesus has suffered and died to atone for their sins. Now that message of "redemption" is either applicable to everyone, or only to the "elect". It is either a "good news" to everyone, or only for the "elect". According to the Bible, it is a good news for everyone. When Jesus commands his disciples to preach the "gospel" (good news) to every creature (Mark 16:15), that means that it is a good news to every creature without exception. If Calvinism is true, however, then the "gospel" is a "good news" only for a small minority, the "elect," and bad news for everyone else. So Calvinism falsifies the word of God, and turns God into a hypocrite and a liar by giving people a "good news" which, for the vast majority of humankind, is "bad news" after all.
 
Last edited:
T

TomFL

Guest
Why would they be lying to most people?
If it is a lie, then surely the truth is that Christ did not die for most people?

So which is it... You cannot have it both ways.
In the view of Calvinists who deny the universal love of God it would be a lie

In other words they would be speaking that which they do not believe to be true

By the same token Calvinists who deny unlimited atonement cannot say Christ died for you
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
When Jesus commands his disciples to preach the "gospel" (good news) to every creature (Mark 16:15), that means that it is a good news to every creature without exception. If Calvinism is true, however, then the "gospel" is a "good news" only for a small minority, the "elect," and bad news for everyone else.

Wrong, on two counts.

1) If "Bill" inherits a million dollars from his father, and we are commanded to proclaim this "good news" to all the world (say it is in the newspaper, or on social media), that doesn't make it any less "good news", and it doesn't mean that anyone who hears about it ALSO inherits a million dollars. It is STILL "good news".

2) The gospel is not "bad news" to those for whom it doesn't save. The bad news for them is their own sin, not that someone else was saved. If you have leukemia, and you hear "good news" that they've discovered a cure for Parkinson's, that doesn't make it "bad news", simply because it doesn't apply to you.

So Calvinism falsifies the word of God, and turns God into a hypocrite and a liar by giving people a "good news" which, for the vast majority of humankind, is "bad news" after all.

That's a very irrational, and selfish attitude. If you can't be happy for someone else, just because it doesn't apply to you as well, what does that say about you?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
2) The gospel is not "bad news" to those for whom it doesn't save. The bad news for them is their own sin,

That was determined for them to commit before they were ever born

and for which there is no escape
 
Top