What do we mean by "the universe"?

Ficciones

Active member
In a cosmological sense, the universe is the bubble of spacetime in which our galaxy and others exist.

But in a logical or mereological sense, the universe would have to include anything that falls outside the scope of that cosmological view, merely by virtue of existing. More properly, we might speak of the universe in this sense as reality, as comprising anything and everything that is real or actual in any sense whatsoever.

Are there any reasonable grounds for excluding anything real or actual from the universe considered in that logical sense of comprising the real?
 

Ficciones

Active member
The scientific term - time, space and matter.
How did the universe begin?

If the universe is all there is, and it had a beginning, then it must have come from nothing.

If the universe isn't all there is, then your conception of the universe is too narrow.
 

Torin

Member
Maybe, maybe not. What do you know of the physics to be able to make such a statement?
Why would someone need to know physics to make the argument Ficciones is making?

If everything that exists is in a box we're calling the universe, and the universe came from something outside that box, it must have come from something that does not exist.

Analogy: If all the apples in the world are in a box, and those apples came from something outside that box, they must have come from something that isn't an apple.

This is really clear reasoning. Physics can't add anything here.
 

docphin5

Member
Why would someone need to know physics to make the argument Ficciones is making?

If everything that exists is in a box we're calling the universe, and the universe came from something outside that box, it must have come from something that does not exist.

Analogy: If all the apples in the world are in a box, and those apples came from something outside that box, they must have come from something that isn't an apple.

This is really clear reasoning. Physics can't add anything here.
Good point but I would add the following clause "as we know existence" to your statement to read as follows:

"If everything that exists is in a box we are calling the universe, and the universe came from something outside that box, it must have come from something that does not exist" as we know existence.

There could be two sets: {set 0} and [set 1} with us living in set 1 that we know as existence or reality. Therefore, {set 0} is not the existence we know. {set 0} arguably "does not exist as we know existence". In theological terms, I think the classical definition of God would fall into that category: invisible, primordial, pre-creation, the foundation of being, the root, etc.
 

Harry Leggs

Member
If the universe is all there is, and it had a beginning, then it must have come from nothing.

If the universe isn't all there is, then your conception of the universe is too narrow.
That is not an answer to ferengi legit question. Supposing the universe is all there is---is too narrow. Naturally, if the universe had a cause then the cause would be extrinsic of the universe. Just like triangles, math equations, and truth all intrinsic, discovered not invented and in no way dependent on time space or matter.
 

Whatsisface

Active member
Why would someone need to know physics to make the argument Ficciones is making?

If everything that exists is in a box we're calling the universe, and the universe came from something outside that box, it must have come from something that does not exist.

Analogy: If all the apples in the world are in a box, and those apples came from something outside that box, they must have come from something that isn't an apple.

This is really clear reasoning. Physics can't add anything here.
I take your point,
 

ferengi

Active member
That is not an answer to ferengi legit question. Supposing the universe is all there is---is too narrow. Naturally, if the universe had a cause then the cause would be extrinsic of the universe. Just like triangles, math equations, and truth all intrinsic, discovered not invented and in no way dependent on time space or matter.
And you wont get one - atheists dont have answers
 

Ficciones

Active member
If everything that exists is in a box we're calling the universe, and the universe came from something outside that box, it must have come from something that does not exist.

Analogy: If all the apples in the world are in a box, and those apples came from something outside that box, they must have come from something that isn't an apple.

Well said. Thank you for paraphrasing, clarifying and condensing. (y)
 
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