What do YOU believe about Jesus' human spirit?

Yes Jesus' body was born, it was visible, and died on the cross, but His spirit has always been and will continue to be invisible, immortal and eternal.

The Bible says a whole human consists of a human spirit, a human soul, and a human body...

1 Thessalonians 5:23... And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What do YOU believe about Jesus' human spirit?
A) Jesus' human spirit, soul, and body were all created at his conception and then later "adopted" by God. (Unitarian view)
B) Jesus' human spirit, soul, and body were all created at his conception and then "assumed" by the second Person of the Trinity. (Catholic Trinitarian view)
C) His spirit has always been and will continue to be invisible, immortal and eternal. (Towerwatchman's view)
D) Whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. (My view)
E) other, please explain

And are you able to provide an overview of what YOU believe? Here is mine...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
 
The Bible says a whole human consists of a human spirit, a human soul, and a human body...

1 Thessalonians 5:23... And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What do YOU believe about Jesus' human spirit?
A) Jesus' human spirit, soul, and body were all created at his conception and then later "adopted" by God. (Unitarian view)
B) Jesus' human spirit, soul, and body were all created at his conception and then "assumed" by the second Person of the Trinity. (Catholic Trinitarian view)
C) His spirit has always been and will continue to be invisible, immortal and eternal. (Towerwatchman's view)
D) Whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. (My view)
E) other, please explain

And are you able to provide an overview of what YOU believe? Here is mine...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
E. The Spirit of the Living God is the Spirit that indwelt Jesus.
 
E. The Spirit of the Living God is the Spirit that indwelt Jesus.

Just to clarify...

Humans have a human spirit, human soul, and human body.

Are you saying that the Spirit of the Living God replaced the human spirit of Jesus?

Or are you saying that the Spirit of the Living God indwells Jesus along with Jesus' created human spirit?


P.S.

I believe YHWH God (who is spirit) "manifest in the flesh" (which I describe as "became the human spirit of Jesus").

1 Timothy 3:16... And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
 
Just to clarify...

Humans have a human spirit, human soul, and human body.

Are you saying that the Spirit of the Living God replaced the human spirit of Jesus?

Or are you saying that the Spirit of the Living God indwells Jesus along with Jesus' created human spirit?


P.S.

I believe YHWH God (who is spirit) "manifest in the flesh" (which I describe as "became the human spirit of Jesus").

1 Timothy 3:16... And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
I would have to study that. I personally believe your comment in blue to be more true without the word "replaced". I think its possible that the Spirit of the Living God was the Spirit indwelling Jesus.

For example, when Jesus died on the cross, God didn't die, because God cannot die. His human body may have, but not His Spirit or Soul.
 
I think its possible that the Spirit of the Living God was the Spirit indwelling Jesus.

If Jesus does not have a human soul...

Wouldn't that make Jesus less than 100% human since he would have a divine spirit, a human soul, and a human body.

Whereas someone who is 100% human has a human spirit, a human soul, and a human body?
 
If Jesus does not have a human soul...

Wouldn't that make Jesus less than 100% human since he would have a divine spirit, a human soul, and a human body.

Whereas someone who is 100% human has a human spirit, a human soul, and a human body?
I am not saying He does or does not. I am not sure. I don't believe Jesus was 100% human. Can Jesus be 100% human and 100% God? I believe so, but not only because of His spirit, soul and body.
 
I am not saying He does or does not. I am not sure. I don't believe Jesus was 100% human. Can Jesus be 100% human and 100% God? I believe so, but not only because of His spirit, soul and body.

You say you don't believe Jesus was 100% human, but then you say Jesus is 100% human and 100% God.

How can you be "100% human and 100% God" without being "100% human"?

Do you mean "I don't believe Jesus was JUST 100% human" instead of "I don't believe Jesus was 100% human"?

Because it seems you DO believe Jesus was 100% human.


P.S.

I believe Jesus is 100% human since he has a human spirit, human soul, and human body. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus.

And I believe Jesus is 100% God since I believe your spirit is WHO you are, and God himself as the Word became the human spirit of Jesus.
 
You say you don't believe Jesus was 100% human, but then you say Jesus is 100% human and 100% God.

How can you be "100% human and 100% God" without being "100% human"?

Do you mean "I don't believe Jesus was JUST 100% human" instead of "I don't believe Jesus was 100% human"?

Because it seems you DO believe Jesus was 100% human.


P.S.

I believe Jesus is 100% human since he has a human spirit, human soul, and human body. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus.

And I believe Jesus is 100% God since I believe your spirit is WHO you are, and God himself as the Word became the human spirit of Jesus.
Yes, that is what I meant. Jesus was not only human.
 
I am not saying He does or does not. I am not sure. I don't believe Jesus was 100% human. Can Jesus be 100% human and 100% God? I believe so, but not only because of His spirit, soul and body.

So do you believe Jesus could be 100% human (and 100% God) even if he does NOT have a human spirit?

In other words, someone can be 100% human WITHOUT having a human spirit.

Or are you saying... EITHER Jesus DOES have a human spirit (along with the Spirit of the Living God indwelling him) so he IS 100% human, OR Jesus does NOT have a human spirit so he is NOT 100% human. I am not sure.

I can't tell if you are not sure whether Jesus is 100% human, or if you are not sure whether someone has to have a human spirit in order to be 100% human.
 
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So do you believe Jesus could be 100% human (and 100% God) even if he does NOT have a human spirit?

In other words, someone can be 100% human WITHOUT having a human spirit.

Or are you saying... EITHER Jesus DOES have a human spirit (along with the Spirit of the Living God indwelling him) so he IS 100% human, OR Jesus does NOT have a human spirit so he is NOT 100% human. I am not sure.

I can't tell if you are not sure whether Jesus is 100% human, or if you are not sure whether someone has to have a human spirit in order to be 100% human.
Yes, Jesus can be 100% human without a human Spirit.
 
Yes, Jesus can be 100% human without a human Spirit.

I agree to disagree.

But I am curious what others on this forum believe...

Can you be 100% human WITHOUT having a human spirit?

Eternomade says Yes and I say No.

What do the rest of you believe?


P.S.

The Catholic Catechism is regarded by a majority of professing Trinitarians in the world and...

Catholic Catechism 363 states... But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God's image: "soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.

Catholic Catechism 366 states... The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents

Catholic Catechism 470 states... The Church was led over the course of centuries to confess the full reality of Christ's human soul, with its operations of intellect and will, and of his human body.

Catholic Catechism 461 states... the Church calls "Incarnation" the fact that the Son of God assumed a human nature in order to accomplish our salvation in it.
 
I agree to disagree.

But I am curious what others on this forum believe...

Can you be 100% human WITHOUT having a human spirit?

Eternomade says Yes and I say No.

What do the rest of you believe?


P.S.

The Catholic Catechism is regarded by a majority of professing Trinitarians in the world and...

Catholic Catechism 363 states... But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God's image: "soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.

Catholic Catechism 366 states... The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents

Catholic Catechism 470 states... The Church was led over the course of centuries to confess the full reality of Christ's human soul, with its operations of intellect and will, and of his human body.

Catholic Catechism 461 states... the Church calls "Incarnation" the fact that the Son of God assumed a human nature in order to accomplish our salvation in it.
When YHWH incarnate did miracles, who was the source of those miracles? YHWH Himself? YHWH transcendent, or immanent?

Or, in other words, what made Jesus(YHWH incarnate) God? Did YHWH incarnate have a human spirit and a divine spirit?
 
When YHWH incarnate did miracles, who was the source of those miracles? YHWH Himself? YHWH transcendent, or immanent?

Note: By definition, "transcendent" means "apart" from the universe and "immanent" means "within" the universe.

I believe the Holy Ghost (the Spirit of God) is God IMMANENT as a spirit and the source of the miracles Jesus performed within the universe.

Acts 10:38... How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.


Or, in other words, what made Jesus(YHWH incarnate) God? Did YHWH incarnate have a human spirit and a divine spirit?

I tried to be as specific in my overview as possible.

I believe the man Christ Jesus is 100% human (no extra nature or else he would be a different kind of creature). That means he has a human spirit, human soul, and human body.

But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus.


I have highlighted these two points in my overview...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
 
And are you able to provide an overview of what YOU believe? Here is mine...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.

It would help to understand your thinking if you would simply identify with some historical position addressed in the early patristic literature. The literature isn't in english and you can't seriously address the topic without using the ancient terminology.

The first question was how to understand ψυχὴ in contrast to πνεῦμά. I took a look at how ψυχὴ was used in reference to Jesus Christ in the NT and Patristics. In John chapter 10 Jesus uses the word in reference to himself.

John 10:11 Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ποιμὴν ὁ καλός. ὁ ποιμὴν ὁ καλὸς τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ τίθησιν ὑπὲρ τῶν προβάτων·
John 10:15 καθὼς γινώσκει με ὁ πατὴρ κἀγὼ γινώσκω τὸν πατέρα, καὶ τὴν ψυχήν μου τίθημι ὑπὲρ τῶν προβάτων.
John 10:17 Διὰ τοῦτό με ὁ πατὴρ ἀγαπᾷ ὅτι ἐγὼ τίθημι τὴν ψυχήν μου, ἵνα πάλιν λάβω αὐτήν.
John 15:13 μείζονα ταύτης ἀγάπην οὐδεὶς ἔχει, ἵνα τις τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ θῇ ὑπὲρ τῶν φίλων αὐτοῦ.

The patristic use was sketchy.

Clemens Alexandrinus Excerpta ex Theodoto (
Section 3, extract 62, excerpt 3, line 1

Αὐτὴ γὰρ ἡ ψυχὴ τοῦ Χριστοῦ, πάσχοντος τοῦ
σώματος, ἑαυτὴν «εἰς τὰς χεῖρας τοῦ Πατρὸς παρακα-
τέθετο»· τὸ δ' ἐν τῷ ὀστέῳ πνευματικὸν οὐκέτι
παρακατατίθεται, ἀλλ' αὐτὸς σῴζει.

Eustathius De anima contra Arianos (fragmenta)
Fragment 17, line 4

Εἰ δὲ διὰ τῆς τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐπιφανείας εἰς τὸν παράδεισον τὸ τῶν
ἀνθρώπων εἰσάγει γένος, ὁπηνίκα δὲ ἐσταυρώθη τὸν λῃστὴν αὐθήμερον εἰσά-
ξειν αὐτόθι προηγόρευσεν τοῦ σώματος ἔτι βεβλημένου τῷ μνήματι, συνές-
τηκεν ὅτι συνδιαιτωμένη κυρίως ἡ ψυχὴ τοῦ Χριστοῦ τῷ Λόγῳ καὶ Θεῷ, τῷ
πᾶσαν ὁμοῦ τὴν τῶν γενητῶν περιέχοντι κτίσιν, τὴν ὁμογενῆ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου
ψυχὴν εἰς τὸν παράδεισον εἰσήγαγεν.

This is just part one. Someone else might want to address the πνεῦμά question. John the Baptist:

John 1:32 Καὶ ἐμαρτύρησεν Ἰωάννης λέγων ὅτι τεθέαμαι τὸ πνεῦμα καταβαῖνον ὡς περιστερὰν ἐξ οὐρανοῦ καὶ ἔμεινεν ἐπ᾿ αὐτόν. 33 κἀγὼ οὐκ ᾔδειν αὐτόν, ἀλλ᾿ ὁ πέμψας με βαπτίζειν ἐν ὕδατι ἐκεῖνός μοι εἶπεν· ἐφ᾿ ὃν ἂν ἴδῃς τὸ πνεῦμα καταβαῖνον καὶ μένον ἐπ᾿ αὐτόν, οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ βαπτίζων ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ.
This raises several issues about what actually took place when Jesus was baptized.
 

Bob Carabbio

Active member
And are you able to provide an overview of what YOU believe?
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

That's the "Source information" That's all I need.
 
Mark 10:42 καὶ προσκαλεσάμενος αὐτοὺς ὁ Ἰησοῦς λέγει αὐτοῖς· οἴδατε ὅτι οἱ δοκοῦντες ἄρχειν τῶν ἐθνῶν κατακυριεύουσιν αὐτῶν καὶ οἱ μεγάλοι αὐτῶν κατεξουσιάζουσιν αὐτῶν. 43 οὐχ οὕτως δέ ἐστιν ἐν ὑμῖν, ἀλλ᾿ ὃς ἂν θέλῃ μέγας γενέσθαι ἐν ὑμῖν ἔσται ὑμῶν διάκονος, 44 καὶ ὃς ἂν θέλῃ ἐν ὑμῖν εἶναι πρῶτος ἔσται πάντων δοῦλος· 45 καὶ γὰρ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου οὐκ ἦλθεν διακονηθῆναι ἀλλὰ διακονῆσαι καὶ δοῦναι τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ λύτρον ἀντὶ πολλῶν.

Here again Jesus speaks about his life (τὴν ψυχὴν) offered as a ransom for many. The word ψυχὴ is used of created beings that are animated. In the Creator creature dualism[1] ψυχὴ belongs on the side of creatures. That distinguishes ψυχὴ from πνεῦμά.

[1] Francis Schaeffer
 
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The remarkable expression τῆς ἁγίας ψυχῆς Χριστοῦ "the holy soul of Christ" is used early found in Fragments of Irenaeus. Relevant because ψυχὴ set in contrast to πνεῦμά, helps us understand πνεῦμά.

Fragments of Irenaeus #26 Greek #28 English

XXVIII.

And the man of God said, Where did it fall? And he showed him the place. And he cut down a tree, and cast it in there, and the iron floated." This was a sign that souls should be borne aloft (anagwghs yukwn) through the instrumentality of wood, upon which He suffered who can lead those souls aloft that follow His ascension. This event was also an indication of the fact, that when the holy soul of Christ descended [to Hades], many souls ascended and were seen in their bodies. For just as the wood, which is the lighter body, was submerged in the water; but the iron, the heavier one, floated: so, when the Word of God became one with flesh, by a physical and hypostatic union, the heavy and terrestrial [part], having been rendered immortal, was borne up into heaven, by the divine nature, after the resurrection.


26 Καὶ εἶπεν ὁ ἄνθρωπος τοῦ Θεοῦ· Ποῦ ἔπεσε; καὶ ἔδειξεν αὐτῷ τὸν τόπον· καὶ ἀπέκνισε ξύλον, καὶ ἔῤῥιψεν ἐκεῖ, καὶ ἐπεπόλασε τὸ σιδήριον. Ὅπερ ἦν σημεῖον ἀναγωγῆς ψυχῶν διὰ ξύλου, ἐφ' οὗ πέπονθεν ὁ ψυχὰς ἀνάγειν δυνάμενος, ἀκολουθούσας ἀνόδῳ τῇ ἑαυτοῦ. Οὗ καὶ ἐκεῖνο γνώρισμα, τὸ ἀναβῆναι ψυχὰς πολλὰς καὶ ἐν τοῖς σώμασιν ὀφθῆναι, ἅμα τῇ καθόδῳ τῆς ἁγίας ψυχῆς Χριστοῦ. Ὡς γὰρ τὸ κουφότατον ξύλον ὑποβρύχιον γέγονεν, ὁ δὲ βαρύτατος ἐπεπόλασε σίδηρος· οὕτω τοῦ Θεοῦ λόγου ἑνώσει, τῇ καθ' ὑπόστασιν φυσικῇ, ἑνωθέντος τῇ σαρκὶ, τὸ βαρὺ καὶ γεῶδες ὑπὸ τῆς θείας φύσεως εἰς οὐρανοὺς ἀνελήφθη μετὰ τὴν ἀνάστασιν ἀφθαρτισθέν.
 
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The remarkable expression τῆς ἁγίας ψυχῆς Χριστοῦ "the holy soul of Christ" is used early found in Fragments of Irenaeus.

Fragments of Irenaeus #26 Greek #28 English

XXVIII.

And the man of God said, Where did it fall? And he showed him the place. And he cut down a tree, and cast it in there, and the iron floated." This was a sign that souls should be borne aloft (anagwghs yukwn) through the instrumentality of wood, upon which He suffered who can lead those souls aloft that follow His ascension. This event was also an indication of the fact, that when the holy soul of Christ descended [to Hades], many souls ascended and were seen in their bodies. For just as the wood, which is the lighter body, was submerged in the water; but the iron, the heavier one, floated: so, when the Word of God became one with flesh, by a physical and hypostatic union, the heavy and terrestrial [part], having been rendered immortal, was borne up into heaven, by the divine nature, after the resurrection.

26.1
Καὶ εἶπεν ὁ ἄνθρωπος τοῦ Θεοῦ· Ποῦ ἔπεσε; καὶ ἔδειξεν
αὐτῷ τὸν τόπον· καὶ ἀπέκνισε ξύλον, καὶ ἔῤῥιψεν ἐκεῖ, καὶ
ἐπεπόλασε τὸ σιδήριον. Ὅπερ ἦν σημεῖον ἀναγωγῆς ψυχῶν
διὰ ξύλου, ἐφ' οὗ πέπονθεν ὁ ψυχὰς ἀνάγειν δυνάμενος, ἀκο-
26.5
λουθούσας ἀνόδῳ τῇ ἑαυτοῦ. Οὗ καὶ ἐκεῖνο γνώρισμα, τὸ
ἀναβῆναι ψυχὰς πολλὰς καὶ ἐν τοῖς σώμασιν ὀφθῆναι, ἅμα
τῇ καθόδῳ τῆς ἁγίας ψυχῆς Χριστοῦ. Ὡς γὰρ τὸ κουφότα-
τον ξύλον ὑποβρύχιον γέγονεν, ὁ δὲ βαρύτατος ἐπεπόλασε
σίδηρος· οὕτω τοῦ Θεοῦ λόγου ἑνώσει, τῇ καθ' ὑπόστασιν
26.10
φυσικῇ, ἑνωθέντος τῇ σαρκὶ, τὸ βαρὺ καὶ γεῶδες ὑπὸ τῆς
θείας φύσεως εἰς οὐρανοὺς ἀνελήφθη μετὰ τὴν ἀνάστασιν
ἀφθαρτισθέν.

May I ask where you obtained the Greek text of Irenaeus?
 
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