What happened to the I and the L ?

[guest1]

The Bible shows just the opposite. See below.

Resistible Grace

Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!

Proverbs 1:24
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,

Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all kneel down to be slaughtered, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen; you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

Isaiah 66:4
So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."


The Atonement has no limits

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

hope this helps !!!

 

[guest1]

Loraine Boettner has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination,

"prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned."


oops.......

 

[Reformedguy]

The Bible shows just the opposite. See below.

Resistible Grace

Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!

Proverbs 1:24
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,

Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all kneel down to be slaughtered, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen; you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

Isaiah 66:4
So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."


The Atonement has no limits

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

hope this helps !!!

LOL, Proof texting

 

[guest1]

Yes the entire bible is a proof text against Edit per mod.

oops

 

[Reformedguy]

edit

unsupported

 

[guest1]

correct the flower is unsupported as the OP so clearly teaches in Scripture from both OT and NT.

oops

 

[Theo1689]

What happened to the I and the L ?

This is a very interesting thread, and even though it's covering re-runs, at least it's more topical than the childish behaviour we see in the other threads today.

The first issue is to answer your question, NOTHING "happened" to the I and the L. They are still alive and well in Scripture, despite your refusal to accept correction. In fact, we could see a Calvinist as the next President of the SBC. John MacArthur and Alistair Begg have been on the radio for decades, and Spurgeon has been highly regarded by all sides of the discussion. Even Wesley had praise for Calvin's commentaries.

My second thought is why only address "I" and "L"? Is this a tacit admission that "TU__P" is correct? I mean, even non-Calvinists accept the "T" and the "P". Is your bias so strong that you are willing to deny ANYTHING Calvinists teach, including monotheism, the Trinity, Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, etc.?

My third thought is remembering you boasting that you were such a "superior" Calvinist to the rest of us. If that were true, how come YOU are unable to refute these out-of-context arguments, which we can refute so easily? Enquiring minds would like to know...

The Bible shows just the opposite. See below.

Resistible Grace

Now your argument against IG is pretty much a worthless straw-man, and demonstrates that you never correctly understood "Calvinism" that you claimed to have believed. Calvinism has NEVER taught that "all grace is irresistible" (this is the straw-man), only that the grace involved the Father's drawing of the elect to Jesus is irresistible. So pointing to verses that describe people "resisting" God doesn't even put a dent in Calvinism, since we AGREE that men naturally resist God (it's part of the "radical corruption" (or "TD") that we hold to.

Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Not referring to the irresistible drawing.
And it doesn't even mention "grace".

Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Those weren't the elect, so they weren't given irresistible grace. But if you want to see IG, check out the parable account in Luke 14:

Luke 14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!

You've heard the refutation of this passage countless times, so I'm not sure why you think you can get away with abusing it as you are.

Those whom Christ longed to "gather" ("your children") are NOT the same group who "was not willing" ("you"). You are not your children. These are different groups. Yet this is a HUGE embarassment for Arminians, so they have to falsely claim they're the SAME group.

Further, the passage is silent on whether the "your children" eventually WERE "gathered" or not, only that the Pharisees were interfering.

If you want to see passages which teach irresistible grace, you need to look no further than John 6:44, Rom. 8:28-30, or John 6:26-29.

Proverbs 1:24
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,

No mention of "irresistible grace" (or even "grace" for that matter), so it fails as a proof-text.

Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all kneel down to be slaughtered, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen; you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

Isaiah 66:4
So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

No mention of "irresistible grace" (or even "grace" for that matter). So it fails as a proof-text.

 

[Theo1689]

The Atonement has no limits

The argument here for the Arminian is very subjective. The Arminian depends on two main words/phrases, namely "world", and "all men", and ASSUMES that these are exhaustive references to every single person at the individual level. Now, in all fairness, I understand why they think their interpretation is correct, I (and all Calvinists) simply think they are wrong in their understanding. They are perfectly free to hold their interpretation and disagree with us, but I don't understand why they have to be so nasty and argumentative over a sincere disagreement.

First of all, the ancient world did not have the same "individualism" mindset that we do today. They thought in terms of "groups", namely Jews and Gentiles, male and female, rich and poor, bond and free, etc. etc.

So a common understanding for a long time was that the God of the Jews only gave salvation to Jews ("salvation is of the Jews", John 4:22). That's why in the OT if Gentiles wanted to be saved, they had to convert to Judaism. But part of the gospel message was that salvation was extended OUTSIDE of the scope of Jews, and included non-Jews as well. But that doesn't mean that the atonement covered ALL Jews and ALL Gentiles, only that Jews and Gentiles were included in the elect. This is why we read:

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Noticde two important things here...

1) Jesus was "slain" for, and "redeemed" people "OUT OF" all these people groups. The atonement was not "universal", it was selectively for these individuals who came "from" these groups.

2) The "all" (that Arminians love so much) isn't modifying "individuals", it is modifying GROUPS ("kindreds", "tongues", "peoples", "nations").

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

One more thing to bring up about the term, "kosmos" (translated "world" in the NT). It does not have just one meaning. According to BDAG, it has 8 major connotations (ranging from "Earth", to "believers", to "unbelievers", to "humanity in general"), and even more sub-definitions. For John 1:29, BDAG gives the definition of "humanity in general" (which does NOT refer specifically to "every single individual". John is simply giving the message that "Salvation is not limited to just the Jews, but Gentiles will be saved as well!"

And to ASSUME that the purpose of this verse was intended to inform us of "who" did Jesus die for, or "how many" did He die for, is ridiculous.

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

The translation of this verse, while accurate, is misleading. Arminians like to attack my knowledge of Koine Greek, because they can't defend their beliefs for themselves, so you are free (and encouraged) to check my assertions for yourself. But the text does not read, "every ONE" in the Greek:

Heb. 2:9 ... ὅπως .... χάριτι .... θεοῦ .. ὑπὲρ παντὸς γεύσηται θανάτου.
Heb. 2:9 ... that......by-grace .of-God ....for .. each ...... taste ..of-death.

It says He tasted death for "each" or "every".
This makes it a substantive with the noun implied.
Obviously the implied group is humanity, but at what level?
"all individuals"?
"all nations"?
"all classes"?
"all tongues"?

I think there is valid reason to reject the idea that He died for all "individuals".

Btw, to make this less one-sided, let me share a couple of passages (besides Rev. 5:9, sharred previously) why Calvinists believe Christ died for a particular group:

Matt. 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Not, "try to save", not "die for", but "SHALL save..."
Not "everyone", but "HIS people".

John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Not "lay down my life for EVERYONE".
Not "lay down my life for "the goats".
He only lay down His life for THE SHEEP.

And only the sheep can believe:

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

 

[Theo1689]

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

This verse has a couple of issues. First of all, I believe the above translation is inaccurate (and curious why the poster didn't cite the translation). There are two possible ways to translate the verse, depending on whether it is understood that "to all men" modifes "appeared", or "salvation".

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (KJV)
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (WEB)

So this ambiguity alone nullifies its usefulness as a "proof-text" for universal atonement. But even if the reading, "salvation to all men" were correct, we still have to discuss and deterrmine whether "all men" refers to "all individuals", or "all nations/classes". Nope, it's a rather weak and impotent "proof-text". But when you're grasping at straws...

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

It says, "mankind" (in general), not "all individuals".

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Again, we would have to discuss which of the many connotations of "world" is meant here, and even then there's the problem that God's love is limited to "whosoever BELIEVES".

"Whosoever" does not stand on its own here, it brings with it a QUALIFIER, "everyone in the group of BELIEVERS, and necessarily EXCLUDES unbelievers. So NOT "every single individual".

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

"all men" = "all individuals"?
Or "all men" = "all GROUPS"?
It is important to note that Paul used the same phrase "all men" in v.1, referring to GROUPS, not "individuals":

1Tim. 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

This is clearly ripped out of context, and this has been pointed out MANY times:

2Pet. 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

These verses are referring to a SPECIFIC group, variously referred to as "beloved", and "us-ward", and are contrasted with the third person plural "they" group of scoffers mentioned earlier in the chapter. Christ died for His "beloved", not for the "scoffers". In 2 Pet. 3:1, Peter mentions that this is the second letter written to the "beloved", the first letter being 1 Peter. And in 1 Pet. 1:1-2, we find that Peter was writing to "the elect". That's who the "beloved" are.
That's who the Lord is "longsuffering to".
That's who the Lord is "not willing for any to perish".

And if God TRULY was not willing for ANY ANY ANY to perish, then why isn't everyone saved? If God is omnipotent, then He is able to get what He wants. If God wasn't willing for ANY ANY ANY to perish, nobody WOULD.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Again, this is a subjective proof-text.
There's no reason not to interpret it as "ours" meaning Jewish Christians, and "the whole world" referring to elect Gentiles.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

There is a LIMITED context, "us" here, which LIMITS who the "all" is referring to, it is referring to "all [of us]".

 

[guest1]

the invisible IG much like the invisible "secret" will of God. when they can't explain it they make up dogma.

 

[guest1]

I've seen the cut n paste a 1000 times before.

next

 

[Carbon]

The Bible shows just the opposite. See below.

Resistible Grace

Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!

Proverbs 1:24
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,

Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all kneel down to be slaughtered, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen; you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

Isaiah 66:4
So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."


The Atonement has no limits

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

hope this helps !!!

?

 

[Theo1689]

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

In the documentary, "Amazing Grace: The History and Theology of Calvinism", D. James Kennedy does a great job describing the usage of "all" (timestamp 2:08:24 if it doesn't start there):

 

[Howie]

The Bible shows just the opposite. See below.

Resistible Grace

Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!

Proverbs 1:24
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,

Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all kneel down to be slaughtered, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen; you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

Isaiah 66:4
So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."


The Atonement has no limits

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

hope this helps !!!

More Eisegesis. ^^

 

[Theo1689]

More Eisegesis. ^^

What "eisegesis"?!
He didn't give ANY commentary, he simply quoted random verses hoping the "free-willers" would ASSUME the interpretation that supported their false theology.

That's why nobody on the "free will" side ever offers exegesis.
THEY. DON'T. KNOW. HOW.

 

[Theo1689]

I've seen the cut n paste a 1000 times before.

next

What "cut n paste" are you talking about?
It took me about 40 minutes to write that all out.

You and Tom are the kings of "cut n paste".

 

[Carbon]

What "cut n paste" are you talking about?
It took me about 40 minutes to write that all out.

You and Tom are the kings of "cut n paste".

Since it’s their practice they assume everyone else does. ?

 

[David1701]

The Bible shows just the opposite. See below.

Resistible Grace

Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

This is not saving grace.

Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

This is not saving grace.

Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!

Jesus wanted to gather Jerusalem's "children" (i.e. those over whom the Pharisees exercised dominion) but the Pharisees were unwilling, which obviously could not stop almighty God!

Proverbs 1:24
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,

Not saving grace.

Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all kneel down to be slaughtered, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen; you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

Not saving grace.

Isaiah 66:4
So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

Not saving grace.

You are not very good at this, especially since you seem to have forgotten that tired old arguments like these are straw men.

The Atonement has no limits

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

The world (i.e. Jews and Gentiles, without specifying number) - next.

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

The Greek of Heb. 2:9 says "...taste death for every.". The context shows to whom "every" refers.

Heb. 2:9,10 (LITV)
but we do see Jesus crowned with glory and honor, who on account of the suffering of death was made a little less than the angels, so that by the grace of God He might taste of death for every son.
10 For it was fitting for Him, because of whom are all things, and through whom are all things, bringing many sons to glory, to perfect Him as the Author of their salvation through sufferings.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Poor translation choice; if salvation had been brought to every person, then every person would, by definition, be saved.

Titus 2:11 (LITV) For the saving grace of God has appeared to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

What translation is this???

Titus 3:4 (LITV) But when the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,

That's "man" in general, not individualised.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

"Whoever" is a word LIMITING the scope, especially when accompanied by a modifier, e.g. "believes".

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Out of context! The context shows this to be "all men" in general, not individualised.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Out of context again! This refers to the beloved elect.

2 Pet. 3:8,9 (LITV)
8 But let not this one thing be hidden from you, beloved, that one day with the Lord is "as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Psa. 90:4
9 The Lord of the promise is not slow, as some deem slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not having purposed any of us to perish, but all of us to come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

In context, this refers to Jews and Gentiles, in general.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

CONTEXT! This is written to and about Christians.

hope this helps !!!

No, it absolutely does not!

 

[Howie]

What "eisegesis"?!
He didn't give ANY commentary, he simply quoted random verses hoping the "free-willers" would ASSUME the interpretation that supported their false theology.

The assumption that the scripture cited supports his position. It doesn't.

That's why nobody on the "free will" side ever offers exegesis.
THEY. DON'T. KNOW. HOW.

True.