What I went through because of Christianity.

That's a thought-provoking testimony, but I'm not sure what your point is or how it relates to the OP. What strikes me about testimonies like yours and mine is that there's a woeful lack of consistency in the Christian experience. Sure, people like you testify as to the power, goodness, and truth of Christianity, but there's always other people who are not so happy with their own experience. I would think it's not likely that a real God would be so inconsistent.
What you described is not from God that it should be counted as some kind of inconsistency with God. Your argument is with the false teachings of Christianity, not the real ones. I mean insofar as that particular testimony you shared goes.
 
I'm not seeing a conversion experience here.
What would you like to know about my conversion to Christianity? I said the sinner's prayer pledging my life to Jesus accepting Him as my Lord and Savior. I started an intense study of the Bible seeking God's truth. I went to church regularly praying with others there and praying on my own.
The promises of God are for born again people.
I thought of myself as a "born again" follower of Jesus.
But don't misunderstand. Even God's children born of the Spirit may suffer according to God's will in this lifetime.
That's what some parts of the New Testament say while others parts promise God's provision and protection. Take your pick! In practice Christians pick whichever view appears to presently fit. If there is suffering, they see that as supporting God's mysterious will. If there is good fortune, then praise Jesus!
And no amount of money can buy their way out of it. But God is gracious and will sustain them in their suffering.
In addition to my own case I've found others who have suffered. Some have died.
 
What would you like to know about my conversion to Christianity? I said the sinner's prayer pledging my life to Jesus accepting Him as my Lord and Savior. I started an intense study of the Bible seeking God's truth. I went to church regularly praying with others there and praying on my own.
I thought of myself as a "born again" follower of Jesus.
That's all well and good, but were you converted? I mean really changed as a person.

For me, it was a difference between night and day. I was changed. I mean changed. I was different after I received Christ. That's how I know I'm really a son of God now. I started a new life when I received Christ. I was born again. I have this deep demarcation between my old life and my new life I started the day I received Christ.
 
Last edited:
That's what some parts of the New Testament say while others parts promise God's provision and protection. Take your pick! In practice Christians pick whichever view appears to presently fit. If there is suffering, they see that as supporting God's mysterious will. If there is good fortune, then praise Jesus!
You can have whatever God promises where there is faith. Sometimes God doesn't give faith, or waits to give it. And sometimes God gives faith but we don't receive it and reject it instead.
 
In addition to my own case I've found others who have suffered. Some have died.
Believers being sustained in their suffering doesn't always mean it ends well. It means they can endure it. There is faith to endure, and there is faith to be delivered. Both are from God. Not from us. What we do is either receive it or reject it.
 
What would you like to know about my conversion to Christianity?

Only what you tell us.

I said the sinner's prayer pledging my life to Jesus accepting Him as my Lord and Savior.

That is not evidence of "conversion".

I started an intense study of the Bible seeking God's truth.

That is not evidence of "conversion".

I went to church regularly praying with others there and praying on my own.

That is not evidence of "conversion".

I thought of myself as a "born again" follower of Jesus.

That is not evidence of "conversion".

That's what some parts of the New Testament say while others parts promise God's provision and protection.

Claiming that Scripture is inconsistent and contradictory is not evidence of "conversion".

Take your pick! In practice Christians pick whichever view appears to presently fit.

Bearing false witness is a sin.
But not being a Christian, you don't seem to care about that.

In addition to my own case I've found others who have suffered. Some have died.

Welcome to life.
People suffer.
People die.
Why is this so shocking to you?
 
What you described is not from God that it should be counted as some kind of inconsistency with God. Your argument is with the false teachings of Christianity, not the real ones. I mean insofar as that particular testimony you shared goes.
I'm not sure what false teachings you are referring to, but church attendance, prayer, faith, Bible study and accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior most Christians would consider to be genuine. Where was I going wrong?
 
That's all well and good, but were you converted? I mean really changed as a person.
Yes and yes.
For me, it was a difference between night and day.
Same here.
I was changed. I mean changed.
I was changed too.
I was different after I received Christ.
I was different too.
That's how I know I'm really a son of God now.
Here we differ. Out of respect for the truth, I left religion.
I started a new life when I received Christ. I was born again. I have this deep demarcation between my old life and my new life I started the day I received Christ.
That happened to me too.

Anyway, with all due respect, you appear to be trying desperately to find something to blame me for to get your religion off the hook. As you can see it's not working. One terrible thing Christians do to those they've harmed is to grill them to find something to blame them for. That's what Theo is doing to me right now. It's a betrayal of trust because people trust Christians who encourage them to study the Bible and pray and try "living for Jesus." If that doesn't work out, then the person who made that good-faith effort is reviled and slandered. To be honest, you should warn anybody you try to convert what will be done to them if they conclude that Christianity is not "as advertised."
 
Believers being sustained in their suffering doesn't always mean it ends well. It means they can endure it. There is faith to endure, and there is faith to be delivered. Both are from God. Not from us. What we do is either receive it or reject it.
If that's faith, then I don't want faith.
 
I take your response here as your saying no, despite the injustices I've explained come from your religious beliefs and practices you will nevertheless continue on your course full speed ahead because you hope it all can still benefit you. Is that correct?
I'm confused by your response. I would always share what I believe to be true. I'm more seasoned than I was as youth. There exists charlatans, false prophets and well meaning people who may or may not have a good or right understanding. The confusing I have perhaps remaining is "how things would benefit me?"
I would say I may benefit in learning more about discernment throughout our exchanges. I may experience growth as a result of our exchanges. Sadly when non-christians and Christians alike are hurt by the body of Christ or imposters of the body of Christ; the hurt is real and can result in how others act in response to Christianity or the Christian message. It doesn't necessitate the message is false just because people were harm prior to hearing the truth or a more truthful rendering than what another may have endured. As far as can God heal today? I'd say if he can, but that isn't normatively how God acts since the resurrection.
 
People are leaving Christianity because so many unbelievers with their own subjective truth have invaded it and ruined it. And, people are very well off financially these days. They don't need God. It's very hard to convince a person who has little to no financial needs that he needs God. Though not impossible.
Then you may wish to pray for another great depression.
 
Hello Gary,

Just in case you weren't aware, I usually have you on "ignore", since your theology is so far off-base from orthodox Christianity, and because you don't really give any reason for anyone to change to hold your position. I also take issue with your "attitude", which I don't want to get into specifics about, but I include that, not to engage in "name-calling", but to give you some feed-back of how you are perceived by others, so that you have the opportunity to alter your approach (or not).

And yes, I understand that others have a negative perception of how I post sometimes.

Now having said all that....

I want to thank you for sharing your testimony. I cannot relate directly to your experience, since I was raised to be "moral" and "law-abiding", so I was basically a "good" person outside of Christianity. So when I came to Christ at 27, I didn't so much have a drastic change of life, but more of an appreciation of WHY it was important to do good and obey moral laws.

I always compared myself to my friend who helped bring me to Christ. He was raised a Christian, so he didn't really know any other way. Of course, at some point he had to come to the point where he could accept what his parents and his church taught him, but it's different from my experience of being "without religion" and then coming to Christ. And then there's you, who made a tremendous lifestyle change, although it seems a great deal about it was having to face responsibility for raising a family, although that and God's influence could easily be intermingled.



And this is where you find out how delicate life is, and how it can end at any point. And it causes one to wonder what, if anything, is on the other side. At least seeds of thought, if not outright conscious ponderings.



With all due respect, the KJV is about the last translation I would recommend for a new inquirer of Christianity, and especially for an illiterate person.
Now I only use the KJV for reference because that is what most are familiar with. As far as my studies I study from the New American Standard and from reading other versions and comparing them with a lexicon, it is the closes interpretation from originals.
Historically, Americans learned to read by constantly reading the Biblie in just this way, as well as following along when the pastor or parents read from Scripture.

And this is a flaw of the education system, and one that I can identify with. At school you are TOLD what to learn, and when to learn it. So you didn't have an interest in learning to read in primary school. You only found the impetus to read when you had a purpose, you wanted to know what God said through Scripture.

As for me, I hated history and geography in school, and had no interest in learning about it. As an adult, I see the purpose, and find it far more interesting. And with the novels we read in English, I didn't enjoy any of them. It was only after re-reading them by CHOICE after I graduated, that I was able to enjoy reading them. And of particular note is the title, "Nineteen Eighty-Four" by Huxley. Very relevant today.

Thanks for sharing.
I do understand why people see me as they do. But when people refuse to even look at what is presented, even when quoted from Jesus Himself, and call me of the devil, heretic, blasphemer , that they dont even try to understand what the book says, and I reply back to their rude comments, all of a sudden im the villain LOL, And that is OK I understand that, I have a very thick skin, and I suppose that is why God sent me into prisons for over 25 years counseling inmates, and street people, old folk, and Texas Youth commission where I counseled with young me in prison from 13 years old through 19 year olds.

Im not here to promote myself as some think, and even you think of me. I am here for one reason only and that is for the very same reason as Jesus walked this planet and preached we are to do the same as he. People look at that and say, well this guy thinks he is Jesus Christ, or this guy thinks he is God and dont even think about what is trying to be conveyed.

Anyway, Im not here to sugarcoat someones opinions, I cam with the same sword as Jesus wheeled and those of his day didnt think to much of his demeanor either. At least I havent went into a rage and turned over tables and chairs or made a whip and drove people out from some church. And it was very obvious that those of his day thought of him just as most here think of me for the very same reason. Jesus didnt bow ti belief systems, he ws stern in who he was in God and I follow his lead even though people look at me the very same as they looked at Jesus and tried to illuminate his disposition by crucifixion.

Am I comparing myself to Jesus Christ? You bet I am and all should be doing the same according to Jesus Himself. And that attitude right there that is not religious act for popularity, but a fact that religious folk see as a threat to their belief systems.

Anyway, it is nice talking with you and if I say something that you disagree with just say that you do not understand and lets talk about it instead of just saying I am nuts. What is ironic is, people cant see in themselves the very thing they charge me of.
 
Yes, this is what I was talking about in my previous post. By saying, "Your truths or Gods?", you are implying that people who disagree with your beliefs don't have God's truth. There is only one truth, and the more "certain" that you think you have God's truth, the more likely it is that you don't.
All I did was ask the question! Why is that Sio bad? and dont accuse me of attacking, I only asked you a question.
It's incredibly ironic, actually. You talk about your error in following the teachings of man, rather than the teachings of God, but when YOU (a man) teach something, and others reject it, you falsely accuse them of "not believing God", even though we're doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING you did when you decided not to follow men.
When I quote of Jesus as I always do in what he says, and another says contrary, all I can do is quote and present that what Jesus Said. If that upsets someones belief system that is contrary to what Jesus Said, then dont blame me for attacks, blame them who refuse to explore that what Jesus actually said instead of putting their own words in his mouth.
You are not God.
And we're not going to reject God's truth simply because an anonymous person on the Internet (Ie. you) tells us we're wrong.
As I said, all I can do is repeat that what Jesus Said of himself, his God he worshiped, and who we should be in the same.

Now -- Do you mean as you do who accuses me of the same? All that I did was ask a question, and all you have to do is answer in honestly without all that hostility that you accuse me of.

See, that is exactly what I am talking about. You are guilty of your own charge. Now if that is a negative for you and grounds to ignore me, then I have to take it that you are not very well grounded in faith as Jesus was.

I never have had to ignore anyone because I know exactly who I am for the very same God who came to Jesus and open in him who He is and all of His heaven in that man, is the very One who did the same in me, and others we read of from Adam to this very day.

Im not here to pat people on there back, nor am I here to be a trophy in Gods showcase to look noble toward man, I am here to deliver the message Jesus was sent here by God to do and that is of who we are supposed to be in Gods same image that He creates man to be spiritually that He is.

Well, 1 John 3:9 is certainly true, but it is my considered opinion (after having studied it in the Greek) that you don't properly understand what it is saying.

1 John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. (ESV)​

1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (HCSB)​

1 John 3:9 Everyone who has been fathered by God does not practice sin, because God’s seed resides in him, and thus he is not able to sin, because he has been fathered by God. (NET)​

All three of these translations are modern, and based on a committee of Greek scholars. So they are not simply "rogue" or "hasty" translations, but consdered in great detail.
I have read all three, I know what they say, I have read the lexicon in comparison. But when that Scripture becomes who we are, then no matter how many interpretations is presented, the raw fact is comes by God Himself reveal it in you. I never look for Gods explanations through intellect, but look for it in my disposition, it is that which can be wrong. I do not practice sin, I am the righteousness of God by His anointing, His mind, be my own. And in that I think is where we differ.

Christ is not what you say, Christy is what you do.



Before I look into the commentary of various scholars, I will tell you right now that I know one of the reasons they say "practice of sinning" is because the verb is in the present tense, and the aspect of the present tense is CONTINUOUS action. Aspect is far more important in Greek than it is in English, where in English the time component is the most (and pretty much only) consideration.
before I look into what Jesus Said I will tell you right now that he had it right. Did Jesus have too refrain from practicing sin, or was he without it all together and perfect even as his Father ion heaven is perfect? Matt 5:48.

You cant see that difference, you are rating on what someone else had to say about it instead of going to the one who has the answered that you can obtain yourself from the One Jesus received His answers from.

Now agin. you will see that as a terrible disposition of me. Fact is the truth only come by Giod Himself no matter what anyone has to say about it from opinions.
Here is Greek scholar A.T. Robertson on the subject:

"9. Doeth no sin (hamartian ou poiei). Linear present active indicative as in verse 4 like hamartanei in verse 8. The child of God does not have the habit of sin. His seed (sperma autou). God’s seed, “the divine principle of life” (Vincent). Cf. John 1. And he cannot sin (kai ou dunatai hamartanein). This is a wrong translation, for this English naturally means “and he cannot commit sin” as if it were kai ou dunatai hamartein or hamartēsai (second aorist or first aorist active infinitive). The present active infinitive hamartanein can only mean “and he cannot go on sinning,” as is true of hamartanei in verse 8 and hamartanōn in verse 6. For the aorist subjunctive to commit a sin see hamartēte and hamartēi in 2:1. A great deal of false theology has grown out of a misunderstanding of the tense of hamartanein here. Paul has precisely John’s idea in Rom. 6:1 epimenōmen tēi hamartiāi (shall we continue in sin, present active linear subjunctive) in contrast with hamartēsōmen in Rom. 6:15 (shall we commit a sin, first aorist active subjunctive)."
-- A.T. Robertson, "Word Pictures", 1 John 3:9​

Albert Barnes:

"9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin. This passage must either mean that they who are born of God, that is, who are true Christians, do not sin habitually and characteristically, or that every one who is a true Christian is absolutely perfect, and never commits any sin. If it can be used as referring to the doctrine of absolute perfection at all, it proves, not that Christians may be perfect, or that a portion of them are, but that all are. But who can maintain this? Who can believe that John meant to affirm this? Nothing can be clearer than that the passage has not this meaning, and that John did not teach a doctrine so contrary to the current strain of the Scriptures, and to fact; and if he did not teach this, then in this whole passage he refers to those who are habitually and characteristically righteous. For his seed remaineth in him. There is much obscurity in this expression, though the general sense is clear, which is, that there is something abiding in the heart of the true Christian which the apostle here calls seed, which will prevent his sinning. "​
-- Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament, 1 John 3:9
Jesus Said that in that day you will ask me nothing. In what day? the day GHod comes to you as He did Jesus and open in you the very same from HGod Himself as Jesus Said He would if. I dont need to ask Jesus Jesus anything just as he said for God Himself will bring out His will for man. As I said -- I never look for explanations in my intellect I look for it in disposition compared to His, for it is intellect that is wrong. And once your disposition is willing to live the life that God puts in man, understanding becomes perfectly clear that you are supposed to as He is and walk in it as He does, perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect.

What has any of these scholars presented that God Himself has forgotten and is not able to communicate Himself?

Im not here to belittle you at all, I am here to ask you questions as to why God cannot present his truth from God Himself that you would have to resort to and seek mans opinions about Him? Are you living the life in Gods anointing as Jesus did? If not then why shouldn't you?

And Im sure you will see that as an attack as you have state of my demeanor, instead of tall I am trying to do is to get you to think in Gods terms and seek Him instead of what others say about him from intellect and opinions. Im not trying to get you to follow me in some doctrine, Im trying to get you to who to Giod for yourself instead of some scholar that can be wrong.

Continued in next post.
 
In my experience, I have NEVER found any self-proclaimed Christian who no longer sins.
Again, Thais is not an attack on you but have you ever thought of as to why when you know very well Gods way in righteousness is without sin?

None of them love God with ALL their heart and ALL their mind and ALL their soul and ALL. their strength.
You have met at least one.
None of them are never angry with their neighbour.
As Jesus got when he turned over tables and chairs and made a whip and drove people from the temple?
None of them are free from lusting.
Those who has the same from God as Jesus had from Him lust after righteousness.

None of them pray 24/7.
All do who is born of Gods same Spirit of mind. We never cease without praying, we cant because that communication with God Himself that prayer is is constant, it is who we are. Prayed is such a miss concept for most, prayer simply is communication with God, talking with Him, not to Him.
I'm dealing with a Mormon who claims he is sinless. Do you believe that he is? I certainly don't.
I would have to sit and listen to his testimony before I could compare his with Jesus testimony as I do with all me who has a testimony, even you.
But let's go back to Scripture, even the same epistle you quoted from:

1John 1:8 If we say that we have [present tense] no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Let's look at the full of it instead of that one verse, OK?

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

Sense you say you study it. Can you see the ( ) in this verse? And edit by man? But is truth for God reveals in us His eternal life to live that He manifests in us.

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
I do exactly have fellowship with God and my identification with Him is the very same as Jesus identify was with Him.

4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
Excedling.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
And all who has received from God as Jesus did in Matt 3:16 there can be no darkness of sin.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
If you say you are of Christ yet the sinner, just as it says, the truth is not in you.

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
And when yo read on in John 3 you will see that He takes away the sins of this world.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Again, if you say you are of Christ who is without sin, then say you are a sinner, then the truth is not in you at all.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Most confess they are sinners but never repent from them.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Note the ED after sinned. Is not that past participle? Has not all sinned? And was not Jesus not to be made sin by those who made him suffer for it in their laws for a god as a blasphemer?

1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And that advocate is one who supports a cause or recommends a particular policy, and that policy is be without sin.

If Christians were truly "sinless". then John never would have written 1 John 2:1.
If Christians are sinners then righteousness is out the window and no need for God or Jesus at all. .

Rom. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
All who are born again of God are dead to sin, that sin mentality has died in us and righteous in the Holy Ghost abounds.

If Christians suddenly become "sinless", then Paul would have had no reason to write the above.
If those claiming to be Christian were actually without sin as they are supposed to be, this world would would be a complete;y different place then the hatred and self centered ways of man.

Quite the contrary, if anything Paul would have written, "Here is the reason why you NO LONGER sin", but that's not what he wrote.
And that is exactly why I follow that what Jesus Said instead of another such as Paul. Paul or John or any other can get it wrong, but what is quoted of Jesus and recieve from the Father yourself as he says, then one cannot get wrong.

Jesus didnt need Pauls input, nor did he needs Johns, He trusted no man nor do I, he got His information straight from the source of it and so do I, and you are supposed to as well instead of the doctrines of others.

I know you will see me as an attack on your doctrine just as you stated of me in my disposition. And as I said I do understand why, and that is Ok, it is to be expected. And as I see it from the same standpoint in the Father as Jesus had from Him. as we are supposed to have, it is obvious that you are not thinking the ways of Jesus in the Father through. For you are an advocate for sin just as you say you are and try and defend it instead of being that advocate as Jesus was to be without sin to defend his ways without sin.

And dont get all puffed up with this question, it isn't my intent to provoke you, just answer honesty, do you know what sin is? Give your definition for sin. That is all I am asking of you and no reason to get on the defense. .
 
I'm not sure what false teachings you are referring to, but church attendance, prayer, faith, Bible study and accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior most Christians would consider to be genuine. Where was I going wrong?
You went wrong in two ways. First you were led astray by man's perversion of the true 'prosperity' gospel (God does in fact prosper his people), and then you abandoned what you are saying was a genuine Christian experience because of it.

See, I started out in the Full Gospel movement when I first got saved. I saw the monkey business, too. But the difference between my experience and yours is that I moved on to the real truth. You did not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nic
church attendance, prayer, faith, Bible study and accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior most Christians would consider to be genuine.
Yes, but they are wrong. That is not the sign of a genuine believer. A change of character is. Which you say you had.
 
Last edited:
Yes and yes.

Same here.

I was changed too.

I was different too.
Then you're saying you left the real thing.

Here we differ. Out of respect for the truth, I left religion.
I don't see how abandoning the truth of a real relationship with God is somehow respecting that which you by your own experience know is real.

That happened to me too.
Why wasn't the reality of a new and changed life good enough for you to stay in it?

Anyway, with all due respect, you appear to be trying desperately to find something to blame me for to get your religion off the hook.
I'm not desperate to find something to blame you for. I'm just pointing out that you say you abandoned an experience that you say was real because of some false teaching that you received.

As you can see it's not working. One terrible thing Christians do to those they've harmed is to grill them to find something to blame them for. That's what Theo is doing to me right now.
You believed false teaching, but worse, you left an experience that by your own testimony was real. How can you not be blamed for this?

It's a betrayal of trust because people trust Christians who encourage them to study the Bible and pray and try "living for Jesus."
I'm encouraging you to acknowledge that you fell for some false teaching (many of us do at one time or another) and to not give up and to find the real truth. There are people here who can help you do that. No one can guarantee that you'll be healed, but we can guarantee that God will keep you safe and provide for you in your circumstances. That is the real prosperity gospel.

If that doesn't work out, then the person who made that good-faith effort is reviled and slandered.
You made two mistakes. You believed a false teaching (it happens), and you left a real relationship with God because of it. Simply pointing out your mistakes does not constitute reviling and slandering you.

To be honest, you should warn anybody you try to convert what will be done to them if they conclude that Christianity is not "as advertised."
Generally speaking, it's usually a waste of time to share scripture with unbelievers, or at least a lot of scripture, unless they are on the cusp of believing, but this scripture is germane to what you say will happen to someone who leaves the faith:

Luke 14:28-30
28Which of you, wishing to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost to see if he has the resources to complete it? 29Otherwise, if he lays the foundation and is unable to finish the work, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, 30saying, ‘This man could not finish what he started to build.’


The same God you say gave you a genuine change of life said this. Don't get offended. Acknowledge that you failed and try again. But be determined and get a good foundation of knowledge to build on this time around.
 
Last edited:
If that's faith, then I don't want faith.
It's not just faith. God gives his believers everything they need to get through what they are dealing with. Where God does not deliver, he provides. I feel like another scripture may be useful right now:

Hebrews 4:16
16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.


Sometimes Christians aren't going to be delivered from what ails them. But what will happen is God will give them what they need to get through it, and be the people they are to be through it. That's the real prosperity gospel.
 
Back
Top