What I went through because of Christianity.

Allow me to finish by saying I saw a sad story today on YouTube. A lonely, desperate and sick elderly woman was convinced by the aforementioned Reverend Tilton to stop taking her medication believing that Jesus had healed her. She died as a result. Will you blame her, or will you blame Tilton and his preaching the gospel for her death?
Both. Though, certainly my sympathies lie with the woman who was deceived, not the worker of darkness who deceived her.
 
I've never seen any faith that results in miracles. I've never seen any miracles, for that matter!
And so they can't possibly be happening if Unkown Soldier hasn't seen them!

You aren't going to believe it even if you do see one! There is a very real healing that anyone can view on YouTube, but it won't move you. You'll write it off as fake.
 
You're not asked to believe in a corrupt church but in God. The two are not synonymous; and as no-one can credit that they are, the fault is all yours.
That's your opinion, but my opinion is that it's a very twisted way to look at blame. But I suppose if I belonged to a group that routinely harmed innocent people, then out of desperation I would blame my group's victims too.
 
That's your opinion, but my opinion is that it's a very twisted way to look at blame. But I suppose if I belonged to a group that routinely harmed innocent people, then out of desperation I would blame my group's victims too.
I don't belong to a group that "routinely harms innocent people." I don't identify with the people whom you refer to. Any fool in the present age can call themselves a Christian. Doesn't mean anything. You were deceived, but you can't play the victim for ever. Most people have been deceived by someone, or are being deceived. What matters is to become undeceived, and blaming all Christians for the sins of a minority is ridiculous. Religion in the USA has many deceivers. Christians are expressly forbidden to associate with those who only masquerade as Christians. Those who disbelieve in God are also very deceived, because when you die, you will face God.
 
Well, stop being glad, because I'm saying Jesus can heal you.
Whoa there! I think I will take your previous comments about being deceived into consideration here. In order for me to avoid the guilt of believing a deception, I will not believe what you're claiming here. I am then blame-free!
Whether or not he will heal you, and when, is the question.
I would just be a terribly guilty person believing this, so I won't believe Jesus will ever heal me. He never healed anybody else.
You believed a perverted message about the healing power of Christ.
I suppose so. I based my belief on what I read in the Gospels and the Epistles.
And you're not not listening to all the possible reasons why you're not healed.
I don't know if it's possible to believe all those excuses. There's so many of them!
You've already made up your mind that Christianity is fake.
But if I believe Christian truth claims, then I'm in peril of being blamed for being deceived. That's what you've told me.
So it doesn't really matter at this point.
Well, can you admit you're wrong about people being blame-worthy if they are deceived? You really can't have it both ways. If you want people to believe what you say, then you shouldn't be denigrating people for being fooled by what others say. That's really stupid.

I think you've painted yourself into a corner.
 
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That's your opinion, but my opinion is that it's a very twisted way to look at blame. But I suppose if I belonged to a group that routinely harmed innocent people, then out of desperation I would blame my group's victims too.
I don't belong to a group that "routinely harms innocent people." I don't identify with the people whom you refer to.
I cannot be without blame and be deceived by you. So I won't believe anything you say.
Any fool in the present age can call themselves a Christian.
So I see.
Doesn't mean anything. You were deceived, but you can't play the victim for ever.
Then I'll just take the advice of the Christians on this thread and not believe what they say. That way I am not only not to be blamed for being deceived, but I won't be victimized by them either.
Most people have been deceived by someone, or are being deceived.
Those guilty fools! I blame them for being deceived.
What matters is to become undeceived, and blaming all Christians for the sins of a minority is ridiculous.
If you don't take action against that "minority," then you are partly to blame for the evil they do. All good Christians should immediately repudiate faith healing.
Religion in the USA has many deceivers.
That's true anywhere.
Christians are expressly forbidden to associate with those who only masquerade as Christians.
I understand that doing so does much damage to families.
Those who disbelieve in God are also very deceived, because when you die, you will face God.
But I cannot believe this! It could be a deception from a false prophet masquerading as a Christian.
 
Are you here to discourage people who do have faith in God? Not being healed is one thing. Causing others who do believe to stumble is quite another.
Well, Big J, it was you who pronounced blame on those deceived by Christians. Perhaps when they've seen how you and Theo and others have spat on me, then they will run the other way when you try to convert them to your religion.

Nowadays, many are running the other way.
 
I cannot be without blame and be deceived by you. So I won't believe anything you say.
I don't understand your logic. I didn't blame you for being deceived. I blame you in that, once understanding that you were deceived, for not precisely apportioning the blame on the blameworthy, but seeking to cast aspersions on others who are no part of those who deceived you.

From the earliest times, pentecostals have been loose with their doctrines. To put one's trust in some arbitrary "pentecostal" is a dangerous thing: no-one who makes or seems to make unconditional promises should be credited with truth.

So I see.

Then I'll just take the advice of the Christians on this thread and not believe what they say. That way I am not only not to be blamed for being deceived, but I won't be victimized by them either.
You should start reading the bible. Then you'll be able to distinguish genuine Christians from false ones.

Those guilty fools! I blame them for being deceived.
We are not all deceived. You should realize that healing is an act of God's divine mercy, and isn't to be taken for granted by anyone. It is necessary to understand why misfortune arises, before God can remedy it, and spiritual remedies don't always come in the form expected and come only by faith in God and in Christ, his savior and the savior of all men.

If you don't take action against that "minority," then you are partly to blame for the evil they do. All good Christians should immediately repudiate faith healing.
It's beyond the power of Christians to "take action" against heretics. The law precludes it and there are too many of them. However online you will find many warnings against all kinds of false teachers.

That's true anywhere.
The USA has a particular problem with unregulated religious groups and cults, although cults have arisen in most places and are from time immemorial. In days gone by, you needed to be licensed to preach.

Today, you need to be very familiar with the bible, so as to be able to distinguish the true from the false.

I understand that doing so does much damage to families.

But I cannot believe this! It could be a deception from a false prophet masquerading as a Christian.
It's what the world has credited from time immemorial. Divine judgment and the need to be reconciled with God is the oldest religious belief in the world. Reject it and you can only be deemed a devout atheist.
 
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I don't understand your logic. I didn't blame you for being deceived.
But then you should have told those Christians who were blaming me to cease and desist or at least tell them that you disagree with them. So much evil and deception arises when good people do nothing. I'm not like that, and I've defended Christians from atheists whom I knew were libeling Christians.
I blame you in that, once understanding that you were deceived, for not precisely apportioning the blame on the blameworthy, but seeking to cast aspersions on others who are no part of those who deceived you.
Again, you are indeed part of the problem if you turn a blind eye to the wrongdoing of your fellow Christians. You should tell them to knock it off like I've told atheists to knock off their wrongdoing.
From the earliest times, pentecostals have been loose with their doctrines. To put one's trust in some arbitrary "pentecostal" is a dangerous thing: no-one who makes or seems to make unconditional promises should be credited with truth.
Actually, the Pentecostals encouraged me to study the Bible. I first became acquainted with the basis of faith healing by reading what Jesus and Paul had to say. Both figures were at least in part faith healers. So you're not going to be able to successfully blame Pentecostals for all that was done to me. To be fair and truthful you need to blame the Bible--the actual source of the trouble. You won't do that, of course, because it's your holy book that you will believe is holy no matter how unholy its effects may be.
You should start reading the bible.
LOL--see what I mean? But I agree that people should read the Bible and use their brains while doing so.
Then you'll be able to distinguish genuine Christians from false ones.
But I know for a fact that many Christians deny that other Christians are true Christians yet both camps read the Bible. As for my own Bible reading, it appears that there are few if any true Christians because almost all Christians simply disregard much of what Jesus commanded. I have no doubt that you, for instance, disobey Jesus.
We are not all deceived.
True. Many Christians are more accurately described as deceivers. They lie like rugs.
You should realize that healing is an act of God's divine mercy, and isn't to be taken for granted by anyone. It is necessary to understand why misfortune arises, before God can remedy it, and spiritual remedies don't always come in the form expected and come only by faith in God and in Christ, his savior and the savior of all men.
None of that ever happens, and you can't prove any of it. That won't keep you from claiming it, of course.
It's beyond the power of Christians to "take action" against heretics. The law precludes it and there are too many of them. However online you will find many warnings against all kinds of false teachers.
The Christian Inquisition obviously disagrees with you. They tortured and murdered alleged heretics based on what scripture says. But before you deny your role in those horrors, I should point out that you've posted much that could have ignited the activities of the Inquisition. Your denouncing other Christians as false is but one striking similarity between your beliefs and the Inquisition.
The USA has a particular problem with unregulated religious groups and cults, although cults have arisen in most places and are from time immemorial. In days gone by, you needed to be licensed to preach.
I suppose our ideal of freedom of religion has led to all these "cults" most of which are Christian in their theology. Cults can be dangerous, but trying to outlaw them will do more harm than good.
Today, you need to be very familiar with the bible, so as to be able to distinguish the true from the false.
Based on my own Bible reading, I'd say that the Jehovah's Witnesses might be above average regarding their Biblical interpretation. They get a lot right that most other Christian groups get wrong.
It's what the world has credited from time immemorial. Divine judgment and the need to be reconciled with God is the oldest religious belief in the world.
That's not true. Many religious beliefs are far older than that!
Reject it and you can only be deemed a devout atheist.
Most people who reject what you say aren't atheists.
 
That's your opinion, but my opinion is that it's a very twisted way to look at blame. But I suppose if I belonged to a group that routinely harmed innocent people, then out of desperation I would blame my group's victims too.
Most look at their doctrines as doing good but in Gods eyes can actually do harm.

Beliefs are not reality, beliefs are speculations and one can believe anything about a god but it is another matter when the reality of God and who God is comes and Himself and manifest Himself in you just as He did in Jesus in Matt 3:16 and opened his eyes to Gods heaven.

What makes people exempt from received the same from God as Jesus did? Is it not because of beliefs?
 
But then you should have told those Christians who were blaming me to cease and desist or at least tell them that you disagree with them. So much evil and deception arises when good people do nothing. I'm not like that, and I've defended Christians from atheists whom I knew were libeling Christians.

Again, you are indeed part of the problem if you turn a blind eye to the wrongdoing of your fellow Christians. You should tell them to knock it off like I've told atheists to knock off their wrongdoing.
Anyone who wrongly judges should refrain from judging. Matthew 7:1-3.

There are some on this forum who spend much of their time judging others. I have put some of these on my ignore list and don't generally interact with them. I suggest you do the same.

Actually, the Pentecostals encouraged me to study the Bible. I first became acquainted with the basis of faith healing by reading what Jesus and Paul had to say. Both figures were at least in part faith healers. So you're not going to be able to successfully blame Pentecostals for all that was done to me. To be fair and truthful you need to blame the Bible--the actual source of the trouble. You won't do that, of course, because it's your holy book that you will believe is holy no matter how unholy its effects may be.
The bible is difficult to understand, because it is so profound. So it's very easy to misunderstand it. Reading it once or twice you get a good overview, but as you study it more, more questions arise. It's a lifelong pursuit.

You made out you were deceived into believing in unconditional healing by Pentecostals, I think? But healing is conditional on reconciliation with God by faith in Jesus and through baptism. If you never attained any measure of faith, or you never made a commitment, or were never baptized, then may be it's why you obtained no benefit? Christianity requires commitment. May be once the novelty wore off, you failed to show commitment. Or may be you were led into being far too optimistic? I have no idea of the facts. You appreciate I can't presume to know other than what I am told. If you assume Christianity is a means to riches, and wealth, as some do, then you are mistaken. It's a means to reconciliation with God.

Yet the bible itself doesn't deceive. Men deceive, and evil spirits deceive. The bible predicts that when hardship arises, many will fall away when their faith is proved delusory. So you encountered a hardship, a deception, as I have done with so many deluded individuals, and you fall away, at the very first hurdle? Stick with it, and you will learn.

LOL--see what I mean? But I agree that people should read the Bible and use their brains while doing so.

But I know for a fact that many Christians deny that other Christians are true Christians yet both camps read the Bible. As for my own Bible reading, it appears that there are few if any true Christians because almost all Christians simply disregard much of what Jesus commanded. I have no doubt that you, for instance, disobey Jesus.
I have no doubt that I do disobey Jesus (and if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves) but it is irrelevant to the truth that is in Jesus, who came from heaven. I come from a family disobedient to the faith. Everyone has to accept that others, whatever they profess, do not necessary reflect the one who is Jesus.

True. Many Christians are more accurately described as deceivers. They lie like rugs.

None of that ever happens, and you can't prove any of it. That won't keep you from claiming it, of course.
I have attended healings services where people have claimed to be healed. You can go online and find many testimonies to bodily healing that are medically inexplicable. I have no doubt that God can and does heal those who believe in him, but it requires real committed faith and not faith that is based on "I'll believe if only God heals me." I don't know enough about you to form an opinion on your circumstances. If you are new to the faith, you need to be aware that faith needs to be proven to be held genuine. OTOH, certain accidents will result in permanent injuries or disfigurement, which can only be construed as permanent "thorns in the flesh" for the attainment of a deeper relation with God.

The Christian Inquisition obviously disagrees with you. They tortured and murdered alleged heretics based on what scripture says. But before you deny your role in those horrors, I should point out that you've posted much that could have ignited the activities of the Inquisition. Your denouncing other Christians as false is but one striking similarity between your beliefs and the Inquisition.
There is no such thing as a "Christian Inquisition" where the punishment is other than excommunication. Anything more entails a political inquisition by a legal power. With powers, we encounter many evils, deriving from the alignment of worldly powers with satan. Jesus taught that those who kill Christians will think that they are offering a service to God.

I suppose our ideal of freedom of religion has led to all these "cults" most of which are Christian in their theology. Cults can be dangerous, but trying to outlaw them will do more harm than good.
Some do need to be outlawed where there is demonstrable fraud involved, which would include people making false promises re healing etc in expectation of financial benefits. Such is criminal activity.

Based on my own Bible reading, I'd say that the Jehovah's Witnesses might be above average regarding their Biblical interpretation. They get a lot right that most other Christian groups get wrong.
JWs do have better moral teachings than others, but they are extremists, and wayward in respect of core Christian doctrines, especially in the denial of the doctrine of hell, and the Arian belief that Jesus was created within creation, which is plainly heretical, and which Christ himself repudiated and the whole church ever since. They are actually a dangerous cult to be avoided where they don't have a high enough view of Jesus, the savior. Contrasted with the High Trinitarianism of the Catholic church, JW are at the very opposite extremity. Two wrongs don't make a right: the opposite of "Jesus = God" is not "Jesus was created." I hold to Jesus being "of God", neither God the Father, nor being created, but existing eternally. You need to look for a middle ground, as to which I would recommend some of the bible commentaries on biblehub.com.

That's not true. Many religious beliefs are far older than that!
Such as?

Most people who reject what you say aren't atheists.
IMO anyone who rejects the need to be reconciled to God rejects the very conception of God.
 
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That's a thought-provoking testimony, but I'm not sure what your point is or how it relates to the OP. What strikes me about testimonies like yours and mine is that there's a woeful lack of consistency in the Christian experience. Sure, people like you testify as to the power, goodness, and truth of Christianity, but there's always other people who are not so happy with their own experience. I would think it's not likely that a real God would be so inconsistent.
How it is related to the OP is testimonies of our experience with God.

And a God is as real as one make him to be, but it is another matter when God Himself manifests Himself in you in real time and opens in you who He is and all of His heaven in you a knowledge that you had not known before. Jesus himself was proof for this in Matt 3:16 when God Himself opend in him a knowledge he did not have prior.

If God had to open in Jesus who He is, what makes people exempt from received the same from God as Jesus did? Is it not because of beliefs?
 
OK, after what I was through, what am I supposed to believe and why? Should I just pretend it never happened?

Do you know what I see?
I see someone with some trials and hardships in their life (haven't we all?), and you seem very bitter, and you seem to be unwilling to take responsibility for your own actions. Even if the few INDIVIDUALS you interacted with were knowingly wrong (and I don't know that they were), YOU are wrong to hold a grudge against ALL pastors, and ALL Christians.

Further, you seem very bitter against Christianity, and unwilling to even CONSIDER it to be true. But you come here with a HUMONGOUS chip on your shoulder, BEGGING people to try to convince you that Christianity is true, just so you have more "fodder" to trash-talk it.

Why would anyone want to waste their time interacting with you, since that's the case?
 
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Well, Big J, it was you who pronounced blame on those deceived by Christians. Perhaps when they've seen how you and Theo and others have spat on me,

So you can "spit" on innocent pastors, but we're not allowed to call you out on it?

I have no desire to convince you that Christianity is true. You don't understand the humility, charity, and justice that it requires. You will never fit in.
 
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Everyone has the capacity to believe the gospel.

Why should anyone believe that?

If God gives people faith to believe, then He gave it to everyone.

Where is that taught in the Bible?

Calvinism isn't true.

Well, when my congregation was very "free will", it was the Bible that convinced me that "Calvinism" is true. So if I have a choice of whether to believe the Bible, or some anonymous internet poster, I'm going to go with the Bible every time.
 
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I'm not able to believe that Jesus died for my sins or that God raised him from the dead just because you say so.

Okay, fair enough.
So why are you here?

Oh, that's right, you are bitter, and you want to blame others for your poor decisions.

Why would you tell me to go back to what was obviously such a danger to me?

Nobody's going to force you to do anything.
But you want people to force you, so you will have someone to "blame".

If it boils down to either my faith is destroyed or I am destroyed. I will choose to destroy everything I can to prevent it destroying me.

<Chuckle>
You against God.
(Good luck with that!)
 
Why should anyone believe that?
Because it’s true.
Where is that taught in the Bible?
It’s not taught in the Bible. But if it was true, that God did give people the faith to believe, then he would’ve given it to everyone because everyone has the capacity to believe the gospel.
Well, when my congregation was very "free will", it was the Bible that convinced me that "Calvinism" is true.
You misunderstand the Bible.
So if I have a choice of whether to believe the Bible, or some anonymous internet poster, I'm going to go with the Bible every time.
The Bible does not teach Calvinism.
 
Because it’s true.

Why should I accept your claim?
I know of people who WANTED to believe, but weren't able.

It’s not taught in the Bible. But if it was true, that God did give people the faith to believe, then he would’ve given it to everyone because everyone has the capacity to believe the gospel.

That's a rationalization.
And you've given no evidence why anyone should accept it as true.

It's called a "non sequitur".

It's like saying, "If it's raining on Tuesday, that means you'll get a pay raise on Friday.

You misunderstand the Bible.

You give me no reason to accept that.
I think that YOU "misunderstand the Bible".
Now what?

The Bible does not teach Calvinism.

Well, God tells me differently.
I think I'm going to believe Him over you.
 
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You THINK God tells you differently.

And you THINK Calvinism isn't Biblical.

You are very confused.
I'm not trying to convince you that "Calvinism" is true.
But you seem to be trying to convince me that my beliefs, are wrong, and you give NO valid reason for me to accept your worthless claims, other than a bankrupt, "I done sez so!!!!!!!"

And frankly, that's not very compelling.
It seems to me that you are very insecure in your beliefs.
 
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