What I went through because of Christianity.

And you THINK Calvinism isn't Biblical.
I know it’s not.
You are very confused.
I’m not.
I'm not trying to convince you that "Calvinism" is true.
Sure you are.
But you seem to be trying to convince me that my beliefs, are wrong, and you give NO valid reason for me to accept your worthless claims, other than a bankrupt, "I done sez so!!!!!!!"

And frankly, that's not very compelling.
1 Tim 2:5; 2 Pet 3:9; God commands all men everywhere to repent, (I’m on my phone, so I don’t remember the reference…); and more.
It seems to me that you are very insecure in your beliefs.
lol… this is about the fourth time you’ve accused me of that. I assure you, Theo, I am very secure in my beliefs.
 
I know it’s not.

So you get to "know" what's true or not, but I simply "think" or "guess", and no matter what (according to you, I'm "wrong").

Do you see why that is an untenable position, and it indicates that it's a complete waste of time to continue discussion with you?

That's why I "agree to disagree", and don't push the same point a million times.
And that's why you feel the need to be "right", and "have the last word", since you are so insecure in your beliefs.

Sure you are.

You see?
That's why I'm CERTAIN you have no clue what you're talking about.
I'm 100% certain that I'm NOT trying to "convince" you of my beliefs. Because you refuse to accept the truth, and I can't force you to accept the truth, and so I don't care what you believe.

But even though you can't read minds, you are CERTAIN I'm trying to "convince' you that Calvinism is true. That's how I know you can't distinguish truth from your imagination.

1 Tim 2:5; 2 Pet 3:9; God commands all men everywhere to repent, (I’m on my phone, so I don’t remember the reference…); and more.

And neither of those are the least bit inconsistent with Calvinism.
Of COURSE Calvinism teaches that all men are to repent.
They are morally OBLIGATED to do so, since they are sinners.
That doesn't mean that they are "able to believe", sinc repentance is a GIFT of God:

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
2Tim. 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,

lol… this is about the fourth time you’ve accused me of that. I assure you, Theo, I am very secure in my beliefs.

And I assure you that you are NOT.
Otherwise you wouldn't keep arguing the same argument ten million times and wasting everyone's time. But you have to have the last word, you are INCAPABLE of leaving a discussion unless EVERYONE agrees with you, since you are so insecure in your beliefs.

Try to be a mature Christian, shroom.
Let's "agree to disagree".
Can you put on your big-boy pants and do that for me?
I'll buy you an ice cream (chocolate chocolate chip, creepy Biden's favourite flavour) if you do.
 
So you get to "know" what's true or not, but I simply "think" or "guess", and no matter what (according to you, I'm "wrong").

Do you see why that is an untenable position, and it indicates that it's a complete waste of time to continue discussion with you?

That's why I "agree to disagree", and don't push the same point a million times.
And that's why you feel the need to be "right", and "have the last word", since you are so insecure in your beliefs.



You see?
That's why I'm CERTAIN you have no clue what you're talking about.
I'm 100% certain that I'm NOT trying to "convince" you of my beliefs. Because you refuse to accept the truth, and I can't force you to accept the truth, and so I don't care what you believe.

But even though you can't read minds, you are CERTAIN I'm trying to "convince' you that Calvinism is true. That's how I know you can't distinguish truth from your imagination.



And neither of those are the least bit inconsistent with Calvinism.
Of COURSE Calvinism teaches that all men are to repent.
They are morally OBLIGATED to do so, since they are sinners.
That doesn't mean that they are "able to believe", sinc repentance is a GIFT of God:

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
2Tim. 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,



And I assure you that you are NOT.
Otherwise you wouldn't keep arguing the same argument ten million times and wasting everyone's time. But you have to have the last word, you are INCAPABLE of leaving a discussion unless EVERYONE agrees with you, since you are so insecure in your beliefs.

Try to be a mature Christian, shroom.
Let's "agree to disagree".
Can you put on your big-boy pants and do that for me?
I'll buy you an ice cream (chocolate chocolate chip, creepy Biden's favourite flavour) if you do.
You started this exchange, not me, Theo. Why don't you follow your own advice and "agree to disagree"?

One day you'll know that Calvinism is false, and that you were foolish to believe it.
 
You started this exchange, not me, Theo.

<sigh>
You just can't let it go, can you?!
You HAVE to have the "last word", since you are so insecure in your beliefs.

Why don't you follow your own advice and "agree to disagree"?

I've been trying to do that!!!!!!!!!!!!

One day you'll know that Calvinism is false, and that you were foolish to believe it.

The false "confidence" you have in your false claim is very off-putting, not to mention anti-Christian.

You've already told me that at least 5-10 times.
So how many million more times are you going to repeat your FALSE claim (since you're so insecure in your beliefs)?
 
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<sigh>
You just can't let it go, can you?!
You HAVE to have the "last word", since you are so insecure in your beliefs.
lol

I've been trying to do that!!!!!!!!!!!!
lol

The false "confidence" you have in your false claim is very off-putting, not to mention anti-Christian.
Hypocrite.

You've already told me that at least 5-10 times.
You've already told me at least 5-10 times that I'm insecure in my beliefs.

So how many million more times are you going to repeat your FALSE claim (since you're so insecure in your beliefs)?
6-11

See you on the next "exchange," Theo.
 
Most look at their doctrines as doing good but in Gods eyes can actually do harm.
I can see the harm with my own eyes. Can't you?
Beliefs are not reality, beliefs are speculations and one can believe anything about a god but it is another matter when the reality of God and who God is comes and Himself and manifest Himself in you just as He did in Jesus in Matt 3:16 and opened his eyes to Gods heaven.
But that's your belief.
What makes people exempt from received the same from God as Jesus did? Is it not because of beliefs?
They can always believe they get all from God like Jesus did. That's what you believe, after all.
 
Unknown Soldier:
I've never seen any faith that results in miracles. I've never seen any miracles, for that matter!
And so they can't possibly be happening if Unkown Soldier hasn't seen them!
Yes. I really don't think miracles are possible. I think people either mistake the natural for supernatural or make up stories about miracles.

So now what? Your words are unconvincing, and words are all you have.
You aren't going to believe it even if you do see one!
I might not believe a miracle even if I saw one. So many miracles have been faked that a real miracle might look no different.

This is hard for you; I know.
There is a very real healing that anyone can view on YouTube, but it won't move you. You'll write it off as fake.
I don't doubt it is fake. Why would God rely on YouTube to advertise his miracles?
 
I can see the harm with my own eyes. Can't you?
Absolutely, anyone can when they have Gods same disposition and see as He sees.
But that's your belief.
You dont understand, anyone can believe anything about a god, but it is another matter when God Himself comes to you, manifests Hiksef in you, and opens in you who He is, What He is,and all of His heaven in you, and what you are in Him to walk as He walks in His same light, perfect even as God in heaven is perfect.

Jesus had a belief about God as well in the credal beliefs of the Jews and taught their beliefs as Rabbi until God Himself took away his beliefs and replaced it with the reality of Himself in Matt 3:16.

You cant relate to His manifestation in you can you? That is why you deem His ways to be like Him with His same mind as a belief
They can always believe they get all from God like Jesus did.
I agree. but it isn't hard to see who is like Jesus was and who isn't.
That's what you believe, after all.
Only to you who only has a belief with no reality from God Himself.

Gods ultimate purpose is that He may be manifest in your mortal man. Just as He did in Jesus mortal man in Matt 3:16.

Never look for Gods explanations through your intellect, look for it in your disposition. It is that which is wrong.

Christ is not what you say, Christ is what you do.
 
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Anyone who wrongly judges should refrain from judging. Matthew 7:1-3.
Either that or learn to judge fairly. You need to tell your buddy Theo that because he's libeling me.
There are some on this forum who spend much of their time judging others. I have put some of these on my ignore list and don't generally interact with them. I suggest you do the same.
Again, judging people is good if it's done fairly. In fact, failing to judge people can be foolish if not dangerous.

By the way, Jesus never told us never to judge. If we can trust the Bible, he told us we can judge as long as we are not ourselves guilty of what we are charging the other person with. I happen to disagree with that because our own guilt is irrelevant to what another person may be guilty of.
The bible is difficult to understand, because it is so profound.
I don't see why profound is synonymous with hard to understand. Many profound truths are easy to understand.
So it's very easy to misunderstand it.
Just take care not to confuse misunderstanding with disagreement. We can disagree over what parts of the Bible mean while having about the same level of understanding.
Reading it once or twice you get a good overview, but as you study it more, more questions arise. It's a lifelong pursuit.
It shouldn't be that way. I think it's only logical to conclude that a perfect being could and would communicate with perfect and quick clarity. What you just described about the Bible are vices and not virtues.
You made out you were deceived into believing in unconditional healing by Pentecostals, I think?
No. I read the Bible and discovered that at least in some places healing is promised with only minor conditions. Those promises are false because miraculous healing is unreal.
But healing is conditional on reconciliation with God by faith in Jesus and through baptism.
But Jesus healed without baptizing anybody, did he not?
If you never attained any measure of faith, or you never made a commitment, or were never baptized, then may be it's why you obtained no benefit?
LOL--I went though all of that. I kept thinking maybe I need to do this, or maybe I missed doing that. Nothing worked.
Yet the bible itself doesn't deceive. Men deceive, and evil spirits deceive. The bible predicts that when hardship arises, many will fall away when their faith is proved delusory. So you encountered a hardship, a deception, as I have done with so many deluded individuals, and you fall away, at the very first hurdle? Stick with it, and you will learn.
If you buy a health product, and it turns out to be defective making you sick or injuring you, do you continue to use it, or do you toss it aside as the piece of junk that it is? Of course you'll trash it. So why abandon such common sense when it comes to your religion?
I have no doubt that I do disobey Jesus...
In what ways do you disobey Jesus?
...(and if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves) but it is irrelevant to the truth that is in Jesus, who came from heaven. I come from a family disobedient to the faith. Everyone has to accept that others, whatever they profess, do not necessary reflect the one who is Jesus.
But Jesus we are told rebuked the Pharisees for their alleged hypocrisy. It then seems odd that he then filled the world with many orders of magnitude more hypocrites than the Pharisees could have ever dreamed of. So I think the miserable failure on the part of Jesus to make people better indicates he had little truth in him.
I have attended healings services where people have claimed to be healed. You can go online and find many testimonies to bodily healing that are medically inexplicable. I have no doubt that God can and does heal those who believe in him, but it requires real committed faith and not faith that is based on "I'll believe if only God heals me." I don't know enough about you to form an opinion on your circumstances. If you are new to the faith, you need to be aware that faith needs to be proven to be held genuine. OTOH, certain accidents will result in permanent injuries or disfigurement, which can only be construed as permanent "thorns in the flesh" for the attainment of a deeper relation with God.
Again, miraculous healings are essentially impossible and never happen. Miracle claims are then either delusions or deceptions.
Religion goes back at least tens of thousands of years. Some of those beliefs included goddess worship and polytheism as well as animism. Christian beliefs are for the most part relatively very recent reinventions of those beliefs.
IMO anyone who rejects the need to be reconciled to God rejects the very conception of God.
And that's where you're going wrong. The fact is that there are thousands of Gods people have believed are true Gods, and you have no more evidence for your God than they ever did. Theism is the world's largest delusion and a dangerous superstition. You practice it at our peril.
 
Either that or learn to judge fairly.

Take your own advice.
It is YOU who is "judging" INCREDIBLY unfairly.

You need to tell your buddy Theo that because he's libeling me.

Please do NOT refer to me unless you are responding to me directly. It is rude and disgusting.

Again, judging people is good if it's done fairly. In fact, failing to judge people can be foolish if not dangerous.

And judging people UNFAIRLY (as YOU are doing) is LIKEWISE "foolish" and "dangerous".
You may want to reconsider.

It shouldn't be that way. I think it's only logical to conclude that a perfect being could and would communicate with perfect and quick clarity.

You misspelled, "asssume".

Those promises are false because miraculous healing is unreal.

Only in your OPINION.

If you buy a health product, and it turns out to be defective making you sick or injuring you, do you continue to use it, or do you toss it aside as the piece of junk that it is? Of course you'll trash it. So why abandon such common sense when it comes to your religion?

Because Christianity is NOT a "health product".

Again, miraculous healings are essentially impossible and never happen.

In your OPINION only.

You sound like a Flat-Earth claiming it's "impossible" for the Earth to be a sphere.

You sound like a geo-centirst claiming it's "impossible" for the Earth to orbit around the Sun.

Indeed, you sound like someone claiming it's "impossible" for Earth to be simply floating in space and not be propped up by something (such as, perhaps, "turtles all the way down").

Miracle claims are then either delusions or deceptions.

In our unrighteously judgmental OPINION, only.

And that's where you're going wrong. The fact is that there are thousands of Gods people have believed are true Gods, and you have no more evidence for your God than they ever did.

You should read Isa. 43-46.

Theism is the world's largest delusion and a dangerous superstition. You practice it at our peril.

You are not being reasonable.
I was an apathetic agnostic for decades until becoming a Christian, and I never ONCE considered Christians or Christianity to be "perilous" or dangerous. That's just silly.
 
Both. Though, certainly my sympathies lie with the woman who was deceived, not the worker of darkness who deceived her.
You're obscuring the truth. The "worker of darkness" who deceived that poor, blameless woman was a Christian preacher. I just thought I should make that clear.
 
Nobody's "threatening" you.
We are simply warning you of the danger you face by continuing to rebel against God. It could only be a "threat" if we were in control of whether or not it happened, and we have zero control over that, only God does.

It is no more of a threat than saying:

"If you try to fly from Atlanta Georgia to Spain in a Cessna 152, you are going to drown in the ocean."​

I don't WANT you to drown in the ocean.
And I don't WANT you to spend eternity in hell.
Which is why we're warning you, because we don't want to see that happen.
But that's the limit of our control, since ultimately it depends on the decision YOU make.
What an intriguing post regarding hell. Does the "Nobody's 'threatening' you" include God? In other words could you replace "I" and "we" with "God" and write:

Nobody's "threatening" you.
[God is] simply warning you of the danger you face by continuing to rebel against God..
It is no more of a threat than saying:

"If you try to fly from Atlanta Georgia to Spain in a Cessna 152, you are going to drown in the ocean."​

[God doesn't] WANT you to drown in the ocean.
And [God doesn't] WANT you to spend eternity in hell.
Which is why [God is] warning you, because [God doesn't] want to see that happen.
But that's the limit of [God's] control, since ultimately it depends on the decision YOU make.
 
Nobody's "threatening" you.
[God is] simply warning you of the danger you face by continuing to rebel against God..

I think you are confused.
The issue is not, "If you do not do this, you will have a new consequence, you will go to hell".

The issue is, "You are a sinner, and your consequence IS already hell". (And that is no more of a "threat" than telling a convicted criminal that he is going to prison.). "Here is a way to AVOID having to continue that path."

[God doesn't] WANT you to drown in the ocean.

I don't know that.

God has created vessels prepared for destruction, just as He has prepared vessels unto honour (Rom. 9:20-24).

And [God doesn't] WANT you to spend eternity in hell.

See above.

Rom. 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills,
and he hardens whomever he wills.

But that's the limit of [God's] control, since ultimately it depends on the decision YOU make.

Did I say, 'ultimately"?
If I did, it is only from man's perspective.
It certainly does not depend on me.
 
I was badly injured in an accident in 1977 when I was fifteen years old. About ten years later I got involved with some Pentecostal Christians who told me that God could heal my injuries and restore me to fitness. I believed them, and I read the Bible believing what it says about God, Christ, faith, prayer, and everything else. The promised miracles of healing and restoration never arrived. And the money I sent out to preachers like Oral Roberts never came back. If all that wasn't bad enough, I was ridiculed by both believers and unbelievers alike for believing what the preachers and the Bible says. About a year or two later I attempted suicide.

So whether you realize it or not you are hurting people when you espouse what the Bible says. You are hurting them badly, and some of those people die.

So what I would recommend to avoid these kinds of tragedies is keep your Christian beliefs to yourselves. Or if you do discuss those beliefs, then explain that they are your own personal beliefs that you cannot assure are good or true.

In other words, tell the truth.
I had a patient in the hospital tell me today that she had faith in God that God would heal her kidneys and she would get off dialysis. But her kidneys are fibrosed/scarred and end-stage, so I know they cannot be recovered. Like when you get a cut on your skin - there are cuts that are thin enough that they can heal without leaving a trace, but other cuts are too deep or wide to heal and so the body fills them in with scar tissue. The immune system can also clear you of leprosy or many infections and even many cancers, but the cells in your body cannot grow you a new limb or a new foot if it has been amputated. So you need to discern what is biologically possible from what is not. Miracles work within what is biologically possible, where there is a biologic pathway for the healing to occur.

It is a medical fact that believing that you can be cured makes it more likely to happen, assuming it is something that can be cured or healed. It's built into all trials of new medicines, the "placebo" effect that roughly 1/3 of those who get the nothing-but-sugar-pill or the sham procedure will improve, even dramatically, as compared to those who receive no pill or procedure at all.
 
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I think you are confused.
The issue is not, "If you do not do this, you will have a new consequence, you will go to hell".

The issue is, "You are a sinner, and your consequence IS already hell". (And that is no more of a "threat" than telling a convicted criminal that he is going to prison.). "Here is a way to AVOID having to continue that path."
You're right. I'm confused now as to what you believe. Your example of the Cessna falling into the ocean seemed to show that the "threat" was really a warning, as you said. In other words, the warning was not, "If you decide to fly the Cessna, I will punish you by having you crash into the ocean." The warning is that the Cessna cannot make it across the Atlantic, and it's not from a Deus ex machina intervention from God, but a built-in natural result of the Cessna not having the ability to make the journey. Telling the criminal that he is going to prison makes it less clear because the prison is an external intervention that comes as punishment, as opposed to saying, "You will receive no extra punishment inflicted by me but you will suffer the natural results from your actions and be surrounded by people you cannot trust - that will be your built-in punishment."
I don't know that.

God has created vessels prepared for destruction, just as He has prepared vessels unto honour (Rom. 9:20-24).



See above.

Rom. 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills,
and he hardens whomever he wills.
OK. Fair enough. This could be debated on the Arminian v Calvinist board (or in the Catholic board as Thomist/Molinist theology).
Did I say, 'ultimately"?
If I did, it is only from man's perspective.
It certainly does not depend on me.
Ah, yes you did say it was "ultimately" up to the individual. Which is why I think shroom felt you had left Calvinism. But I was more interested in your view of hell with the Cessna example, which suggested that hell was not inflicted by God but the natural default state that results if you are left without God's grace. I think Unknown Soldier was arguing against a God who would inflict hell on people. But you seemed to answer it was no more a threat than a warning not to fly a Cessna across the ocean.
 
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OK. Fair enough. This could be debated on the Arminian v Calvinist board (or in the Catholic board as Thomist/Molinist theology).

I suggest that this would be the correct continuation.

Ah, yes you did say it was "ultimately" up to the individual. Which is why I think shroom felt you had left Calvinism.

Well, that would be his error, wouldn't it?
At the VERY VERY VERY least, if that is how he interpreted my assertion, the appropriate thing to do would to be to ask for clarification and conformation, rather than a snarky and insulting, "Glad to see you've left Calvinism".

But I was more interested in your view of hell with the Cessna example, which suggested that hell was not inflicted by God but the natural default state that results if you are left without God's grace.

Um, again, you demonstrate that you are VERY confused.
The two "options" you gave are by no means mutually exclusive.

It's like saying, "Do you believe God exists, or are you a Catholic?"

I think Unknown Soldier was arguing against a God who would inflict hell on people.

So US doesn't want God to be just and holy.
I can understand why sinners would not want that.

But you seemed to answer it was no more a threat than a warning not to fly a Cessna across the ocean.

Please quote where I said anything along the lines of "no more a threat".
And when you find that you cannot, I would greatly appreciate it if you would cease MISREPRESENTING me.
 
Well, that would be his error, wouldn't it?
You made the statement, not me.

At the VERY VERY VERY least, if that is how he interpreted my assertion,
I was only going by what you said, that it was his decision.

the appropriate thing to do would to be to ask for clarification and conformation, rather than a snarky and insulting, "Glad to see you've left Calvinism".
One day you'll no longer conform to Calvinism.
 
You made the statement, not me.

I'm sorry, the fact that @Merton mentioned your name and included you in the discussion (which was rude, IMO, just like when you did it to me) was NOT an invitation to continue discussion with you.

And no, I NEVER claimed to have "left Calvinism".
That was YOUR false assumption.

One day you'll no longer conform to Calvinism.

Sorry, one day you'll find that your sad and lame attempts at brainwashing me will be a total failure.
Now pleast stop harassing me.

What is that now, the 12th time you've said that?
We get it already. You don't have to harass me by constantly trying to brainwash me.

By thank you for sharing your rotten "fruits" of rejecting the deity of Christ.
 
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I'm sorry, the fact that @Merton mentioned your name and included you in the discussion (which was rude, IMO, just like when you did it to me) was NOT an invitation to continue discussion with you.

And no, I NEVER claimed to have "left Calvinism".
That was YOUR false assumption.
You made a statement contradicting Calvinism.

Sorry, one day you'll find that your sad and lame attempts at brainwashing me will be a total failure.
I won't have to explain anything to you again. One day Jesus Christ will tell you Calvinism was a lie.

Now pleast stop harassing me.
I'll think about it..

What is that now, the 12th time you've said that?
Probably more like 8-10.

We get it already. You don't have to harass me by constantly trying to brainwash me.
I'm not trying to brainwash you.

By thank you for sharing your rotten "fruits" of rejecting the deity of Christ.
That's another truth that you will one day learn.
 
You made a statement contradicting Calvinism.

Actually, I didn't.
But this is not the place to rehash your nonsense.

I won't have to explain anything to you again. One day Jesus Christ will tell you Calvinism was a lie.

<sigh>
More worthless brainwashing.
You really are obsessed and insecure, aren't you?

Probably more like 8-10.

Why do you feel the need to harass me by repeating yourself over and over and over and over and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER ...

Do you really think it's a good look on you that you keep harassing me?
 
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