What I went through because of Christianity.

Ah, yes you did say it was "ultimately" up to the individual. Which is why I think shroom felt you had left Calvinism.

Btw, thank you SO SO much for bringing "shroom" into this conversation, just so he can continue to harass me.

GREATLY appreciated.
:mad:
 
I had a patient in the hospital tell me today that she had faith in God that God would heal her kidneys and she would get off dialysis. But her kidneys are fibrosed/scarred and end-stage, so I know they cannot be recovered. Like when you get a cut on your skin - there are cuts that are thin enough that they can heal without leaving a trace, but other cuts are too deep or wide to heal and so the body fills them in with scar tissue. The immune system can also clear you of leprosy or many infections and even many cancers, but the cells in your body cannot grow you a new limb or a new foot if it has been amputated. So you need to discern what is biologically possible from what is not. Miracles work within what is biologically possible, where there is a biologic pathway for the healing to occur.

It is a medical fact that believing that you can be cured makes it more likely to happen, assuming it is something that can be cured or healed. It's built into all trials of new medicines, the "placebo" effect that roughly 1/3 of those who get the nothing-but-sugar-pill or the sham procedure will improve, even dramatically, as compared to those who receive no pill or procedure at all.
When God speaks of healing it has all to do with the mind, not the body. If the mind is healed the mind will compensate for what the body lacks. If one looses a leg, one can sit in a wheelchair the rest of his life in petty, or he can compensate for the impairment and do something about it and live in joy. In that is healing.

The lady with the kidney issue is foolish if there is help medically and refuses it. Many years ago I used to go into Cook Children's Hospital for years as clergy and pray with parents and their kids whose child was in dire straight. Those who refused treatment for their child and said God was in control usually wound up knowing they made the wrong decision.

God is not a wishing well that a dream might come true, God is a God of the mind, Spirit that there mind is, and the power of is in making the right decisions ,not based on a belief but based on reality.

Jesus was very clear in Luke 17:20-21 that the kingdom of God does not come with observation, what is it that lady with the kidney issue looking for? The kingdom of God is within you to have a sound mind and in that sound mind dictates to the body what it must do to survive.

Faith healers? Im sorry but they do not have a sound mind, they make show for enterprise. I was sucked into their lair at one time, but God forgave me of that error.

Religious minds seeks the sensational instead of reality.
 
Then you weren't really converted. That's what you need to say.
I'm not here to get bogged down in your petty Christian squabbles over what constitutes a "real conversion." Suffice it to say I was conned. That's all anybody needs to know.
Nobody has proven that what I believe is a lie.
That might be because nobody knows what you believe. Whatever it might be, I won't believe it until I see it.
If you knew the Bible...
You just demonstrated yourself to be untrustworthy. I've noticed it's standard Christian practice to encourage people to study the Bible, and when some do study the Bible and disagree with what those Christians believe about it, then that person, despite having made a good-faith effort, is insulted for her or his disagreement! That's betrayal.
...you'd know that no court with the full counsel of the scriptures could convict anybody of saying a person can be healed and then them not be healed.
Then those courts are wrong. Any people in any culture need to be protected from quacks especially religious quacks.
Robert Tilton is a joke. He's so obviously fake that the church does not need to apologize or take responsibility for him.
So if a Christian con-artist is too fake, then Christians need not take responsibility for that con-artist? That's very convenient. Just what is the limit of fakery beyond which Christian responsibility is no longer in effect?
Of course it does. I told you there is a real prosperity gospel. If you knew the scriptures you'd know that fakes pervert the truth. They masquerade as servants of the light. You got duped by one. But instead of searching out the real truth, you bailed out. You failed. The truth didn't fail you. Now you have nothing. At least if you were a Christian you could have God's comfort and peace through your trial.
I've often wondered if anybody will ever invent a religion that doesn't involve hating people and lying about them and to them. Do you think that will ever happen?
 
I've often wondered if anybody will ever invent a religion that doesn't involve hating people and lying about them and to them. Do you think that will ever happen?
It already exists. Just because some people are not true to Christianity and misrepresent it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
 
So if a Christian con-artist is too fake, then Christians need not take responsibility for that con-artist? That's very convenient. Just what is the limit of fakery beyond which Christian responsibility is no longer in effect?
The limit is when they are outside of the organizational limits of your particular theological beliefs. For example, a Southern Baptist need not take responsibility for what Seventh Day Adventists are teaching, and vice versa. But churches must take responsibility for error within their own theological ranks.
 
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Actually, I didn't.
But this is not the place to rehash your nonsense.



<sigh>
More worthless brainwashing.
You really are obsessed and insecure, aren't you?



Why do you feel the need to harass me by repeating yourself over and over and over and over and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER ...

Do you really think it's a good look on you that you keep harassing me?
You make me smile, Theo. :)
 
I'm not here to get bogged down in your petty Christian squabbles over what constitutes a "real conversion." Suffice it to say I was conned. That's all anybody needs to know.

That might be because nobody knows what you believe. Whatever it might be, I won't believe it until I see it.

You just demonstrated yourself to be untrustworthy. I've noticed it's standard Christian practice to encourage people to study the Bible, and when some do study the Bible and disagree with what those Christians believe about it, then that person, despite having made a good-faith effort, is insulted for her or his disagreement! That's betrayal.

Then those courts are wrong. Any people in any culture need to be protected from quacks especially religious quacks.

So if a Christian con-artist is too fake, then Christians need not take responsibility for that con-artist? That's very convenient. Just what is the limit of fakery beyond which Christian responsibility is no longer in effect?

I've often wondered if anybody will ever invent a religion that doesn't involve hating people and lying about them and to them. Do you think that will ever happen?
Robert Tilton is just a con-artist. In no place in the bible are "prosperity" promises made or condoned with respect to those who give money in response to demands from specific people.

The bible contains grave warnings against false prophets. That you failed to grasp that they were a false prophet is understandable, but it doesn't detract from anything Jesus said e.g.

Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
Mat 24:11 "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."
Mar 13:22 "For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect."

and many other verses.

Beware of anyone who demands you give them money: they are most likely imposters. The same kind of purported monetary transaction for spiritual benefits was practised by the medieval popes in the 16th century, and engendered the protestant reformation in the 16th century under Luther.

It's classed as simony: a criminal trade in pretend spiritual benefits for money. It's forbidden under divine and ecclesiastical law. (It may not be forbidden under pagan law) but that it exists is not a reflection on the Christian church overall, which has long condemned it.
 
It already exists. Just because some people are not true to Christianity and misrepresent it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
So true. Many say they follow the ways of God Who is a Spirit then turn right around and try and make their god a man.
 
The limit is when they are outside of the organizational limits of your particular theological beliefs. For example, a Southern Baptist need not take responsibility for what Seventh Day Adventists are teaching, and vice versa. But churches must take responsibility for error within their own theological ranks.
And if these actually received from GHod the same as Jesus did in Matt 3:16 as God commands of us all, they would be just as Jedid and walk away from those religious beliefs as he did from the temple of the Jews he once taught their belief as Rabbi.

But these are not going to do that for their focus is on enterprise instead of holiness.
 
Robert Tilton is just a con-artist. In no place in the bible are "prosperity" promises made or condoned with respect to those who give money in response to demands from specific people.

The bible contains grave warnings against false prophets. That you failed to grasp that they were a false prophet is understandable, but it doesn't detract from anything Jesus said e.g.

Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
Mat 24:11 "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."
Mar 13:22 "For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect."

and many other verses.

Beware of anyone who demands you give them money: they are most likely imposters. The same kind of purported monetary transaction for spiritual benefits was practised by the medieval popes in the 16th century, and engendered the protestant reformation in the 16th century under Luther.

It's classed as simony: a criminal trade in pretend spiritual benefits for money. It's forbidden under divine and ecclesiastical law. (It may not be forbidden under pagan law) but that it exists is not a reflection on the Christian church overall, which has long condemned it.
Not just Robert Tilton, but Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copland, Jessie Duplantis, Gordon white, and a host of others are out to get your dollar, and sadly a whole lot of people are duped into their lair. They take your dollar and build $11,000,000.00 homes and tell you you can do the same if you give LOL. They are good salesmen and use the name of Christ as advertisement for enterprise to the gullible and unsuspecting. Been there done that, stupid me.
 
Either that or learn to judge fairly. You need to tell your buddy Theo that because he's libeling me.
He insults me continuously also. I just ignore it.

Again, judging people is good if it's done fairly. In fact, failing to judge people can be foolish if not dangerous.
I agree.

By the way, Jesus never told us never to judge. If we can trust the Bible, he told us we can judge as long as we are not ourselves guilty of what we are charging the other person with. I happen to disagree with that because our own guilt is irrelevant to what another person may be guilty of.
I think Jesus was referring to any sin we ourselves have committed and have been forgiven when he said "do not judge" (i.e. don't purport to fix or enforce a penalty for a sin you were once guilty of). Even if we have repented of certain sins, given them up for good, it's best that we refrain from this (cf. parable in Mat 18:21) otherwise we might be called upon to pay the same penalty.

I don't see why profound is synonymous with hard to understand. Many profound truths are easy to understand.
E.g. Luke 14:33 "Everyone who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple" is always difficult to apply for someone living in a pagan community in an industrial society.

Just take care not to confuse misunderstanding with disagreement. We can disagree over what parts of the Bible mean while having about the same level of understanding.
Hypothetically true.

It shouldn't be that way. I think it's only logical to conclude that a perfect being could and would communicate with perfect and quick clarity. What you just described about the Bible are vices and not virtues.
Don't forget the bible was written in the context of the pre-industrial theocracy that was Israel, and not for those living in pagan communities in industrial societies 2000 years later. Israel was nothing like today's society: its belief systems likewise.

Also bible translations are error prone and have mistakes (i.e. as made by the translators themselves). This creates further complexities.

No. I read the Bible and discovered that at least in some places healing is promised with only minor conditions. Those promises are false because miraculous healing is unreal.
Miraculous healing is not unreal, but it isn't for those without faith; and may be you don't understand what faith means. It's not just holding an opinion. It's being convinced something is true.

But Jesus healed without baptizing anybody, did he not?
Israel was a theocracy established under the laws of God. The presence of faith was commonplace. John the Baptist had baptized many. Jesus was sent to a society that morally and spiritually speaking was rather more elevated than the democratic cesspits of the modern era. That is why he was able to work miracles.

LOL--I went though all of that. I kept thinking maybe I need to do this, or maybe I missed doing that. Nothing worked.
May be God was looking at you and saying, "you're doing the right things but you're still not trusting me enough." Religion for a lot of people is to be involved with other people, but not with God himself. If you've had second thoughts about faith, it does tend to suggest this might be the synopsis, and that you need to search the deeper things of God.

If you buy a health product, and it turns out to be defective making you sick or injuring you, do you continue to use it, or do you toss it aside as the piece of junk that it is? Of course you'll trash it. So why abandon such common sense when it comes to your religion?
Because I can tell you're still very immature. You're like someone who buys an expensive car, cannot get it to start, and then junks it as no good, when all it needed was a tank of gas or a new battery. There are still many things you don't know, and you will only know by persevering in obedience.

In what ways do you disobey Jesus?
Too many possessiosns that always seem to accumulate and which I need to get rid of.

But Jesus we are told rebuked the Pharisees for their alleged hypocrisy. It then seems odd that he then filled the world with many orders of magnitude more hypocrites than the Pharisees could have ever dreamed of. So I think the miserable failure on the part of Jesus to make people better indicates he had little truth in him.
God isn't responsible for sins. His purpose is to create disciples. As long as disciples are still being created, God's purposes are being fulfilled.

The world is temporary and will come to an end.

Again, miraculous healings are essentially impossible and never happen. Miracle claims are then either delusions or deceptions.
I don't believe you. There are many miraculous healings all the time.

Religion goes back at least tens of thousands of years. Some of those beliefs included goddess worship and polytheism as well as animism. Christian beliefs are for the most part relatively very recent reinventions of those beliefs.
The christian religion started with Adam and Eve, who were the progenitors of the lifelong man-wife concept, and they were followed by Sumerian religion mentioned in the book of Genesis. From these came Abraham the Amorite, and Moses and the Jews. God always preserved a line of those who were reconciled to God from Adam.

Outside of this lineage of the godly, anything went. Nature religion was one of the earliest abberations and cropped up everywhere, and reflects the natural state of man, which is brutal and savage. Actually to some extent apostasy from Christianity has led to a reversion back towards nature religion, but it doesn't do anyone any good. There's a lot of very unhappy nature worshippers around, I seriously don't recommend it.

With the evolution of civiliation came the evolution of religion. The religion of Jesus is the most exalted, the most sublime, of all.

And that's where you're going wrong. The fact is that there are thousands of Gods people have believed are true Gods, and you have no more evidence for your God than they ever did. Theism is the world's largest delusion and a dangerous superstition. You practice it at our peril.
So you've no faith at all, and you criticize God for not healing you? Well there's the reason. But you won't find any other religion like Christianity on the earth's surface. There are no comparators, unless you want to submit to a legalistic cult.

I disagree that Christianity is a dangerous superstition. Rather there are many dangerous people that pretend to be Christians.
 
Robert Tilton is just a con-artist. In no place in the bible are "prosperity" promises made or condoned with respect to those who give money in response to demands from specific people.

The bible contains grave warnings against false prophets. That you failed to grasp that they were a false prophet is understandable, but it doesn't detract from anything Jesus said e.g.

Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
Mat 24:11 "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."
Mar 13:22 "For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect."

and many other verses.

Beware of anyone who demands you give them money: they are most likely imposters. The same kind of purported monetary transaction for spiritual benefits was practised by the medieval popes in the 16th century, and engendered the protestant reformation in the 16th century under Luther.

It's classed as simony: a criminal trade in pretend spiritual benefits for money. It's forbidden under divine and ecclesiastical law. (It may not be forbidden under pagan law) but that it exists is not a reflection on the Christian church overall, which has long condemned it.
You're missing my point. The reason Tilton can scam some people is because they believe the Bible is God's book. Tilton knows that at least some people will believe him because of their Christian beliefs.
 
You're missing my point. The reason Tilton can scam some people is because they believe the Bible is God's book. Tilton knows that at least some people will believe him because of their Christian beliefs.
The people who are scammed by Tilton don't know the bible sufficiently to understand it, or credit what it contains. There are many who let themselves by taken advantage of. If they knew the bible, the last thing they would be is scammed by deceivers such as Tilton. I reject the contention that the Christian religion, or the bible, has anything to do with it. It is rather the lack of genuine Christian religion that is to blame for this deception.

Liars and deceivers merely look for the easiest ways to make money. As Paul said:

Roms 16: 17 -18 "I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive."

Tit 2:15 "Don't let anyone look down on you."

2Co 11:20 "In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face."
 
You're missing my point. The reason Tilton can scam some people is because they believe the Bible is God's book. Tilton knows that at least some people will believe him because of their Christian beliefs.
That's why it's so important for Christians to read their Bibles themselves and stop letting teachers and preachers spoon feed them. Then you'll be able to discern truth from error and not be deceived again. Example:

1 Timothy 6:5
5...people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.


The lie of the enemy is designed to do exactly what it did to you - lead you away from God. But now start reading your Bible and get the real truth and give God another try and get firmly anchored in the truth:

Ephesians 4:14
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.
 
That's why it's so important for Christians to read their Bibles themselves and stop letting teachers and preachers spoon feed them. Then you'll be able to discern truth from error and not be deceived again.
You're demonstrating your own misunderstanding of the Bible here. Reading the Bible like reading anything else is no guarantee that the reader will understand it. The fact is that the Bible is a huge work filled with strange stories, poems, and prophecies that were originally written long ago in languages that few people today speak or understand. The cultures of the Bible writers were very different from cultures in existence today, and any reasonable person aware of that fact realizes that anybody can be unable to get what it means if it means anything at all.

And I must disagree with your characterization of those who listen to "teachers and preachers." Most people I know of who listen to others regarding the Bible also read the Bible themselves. Whatever errors those readers might make, the fact is that they are making good-faith efforts to know the Bible and deserve credit for their effort. So to characterize them as stupid or foolish is not only cruel but a betrayal of their trusting Christians.
The lie of the enemy is designed to do exactly what it did to you - lead you away from God. But now start reading your Bible and get the real truth and give God another try and get firmly anchored in the truth...
LOL--It looks like "the enemy" makes good use of the Bible because reading it can make a doubter out of anybody. It made me a doubter.
 
Well, that would be his error, wouldn't it?
At the VERY VERY VERY least, if that is how he interpreted my assertion, the appropriate thing to do would to be to ask for clarification and conformation, rather than a snarky and insulting, "Glad to see you've left Calvinism".
Yes, I think you're right. If you write something that sounds contrary to what you usually say, asking for clarification or confirmation would be the best course.
Please quote where I said anything along the lines of "no more a threat".
And when you find that you cannot, I would greatly appreciate it if you would cease MISREPRESENTING me.
My first reply to you included your quote saying it was "no more of a threat." Here it is again. You had written to the other poster:

Nobody's "threatening" you.
We are simply warning you of the danger you face by continuing to rebel against God. It could only be a "threat" if we were in control of whether or not it happened, and we have zero control over that, only God does.

It is no more of a threat than saying:

"If you try to fly from Atlanta Georgia to Spain in a Cessna 152, you are going to drown in the ocean."

I don't WANT you to drown in the ocean.
And I don't WANT you to spend eternity in hell.
Which is why we're warning you, because we don't want to see that happen.
But that's the limit of our control, since ultimately it depends on the decision YOU make.
Can you clarify or confirm what you meant by your example of the warning about attempting an ocean crossing on a Cessna? Like I said, I found it "intriguing" which means I don't claim to know exactly what you're saying and so I asked you a question about it.
 
When God speaks of healing it has all to do with the mind, not the body. If the mind is healed the mind will compensate for what the body lacks. If one loses a leg, one can sit in a wheelchair the rest of his life in petty, or he can compensate for the impairment and do something about it and live in joy. In that is healing.
I agree there is healing in the mind. There is also healing in the body. The lady I was speaking with wanted both, which is only natural.
The lady with the kidney issue is foolish if there is help medically and refuses it. Many years ago I used to go into Cook Children's Hospital for years as clergy and pray with parents and their kids whose child was in dire straight. Those who refused treatment for their child and said God was in control usually wound up knowing they made the wrong decision.
She did not refuse any medical help. The issue is in having faith in God healing something that cannot be biologically healed.
God is not a wishing well that a dream might come true, God is a God of the mind, Spirit that there mind is, and the power of is in making the right decisions ,not based on a belief but based on reality.
Yes, our mind should be able to assess reality accurately. Some things have a biological pathway for healing and so can be healed - however improbable, such as healing leprosy or cancer. We call these highly improbable, rarely seen cures and recoveries miracles, and many have been recorded. Other things have no biological pathway, such as growing a new foot.
 
You're demonstrating your own misunderstanding of the Bible here. Reading the Bible like reading anything else is no guarantee that the reader will understand it.
Some things you do have to have the aid of the Spirit to understand:

1 Corinthians 2:14
14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.


But what it is about the plain scriptures that were shared with you that you can not understand?:
1 Timothy 6:5
5...people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

Ephesians 4:14
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.
Roms 16: 17 -18 "I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive."

Tit 2:15 "Don't let anyone look down on you."

2Co 11:20 "In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face."

---------------

The fact is that the Bible is a huge work filled with strange stories, poems, and prophecies that were originally written long ago in languages that few people today speak or understand.
That's where the aid of the Spirit comes in. Truthfully, the Bible is really a book for believers who have the Spirit, not unbelievers who don't have the Spirit, and for the very reason that they do have the Spirit. But surely it is useful to a degree to unbelievers. The Bible is how we are able to show you, an unbeliever without the Spirit, the error of the false doctrine that led you away from God. The scriptures we shared are easy to understand. And ones you can check out for yourself, which you should do.

The cultures of the Bible writers were very different from cultures in existence today, and any reasonable person aware of that fact realizes that anybody can be unable to get what it means if it means anything at all.
The Bible is the most useful source to understand that which crosses all races, religions, and cultures - the nature of man himself. If you can understand human nature you can understand the secret to life.

And I must disagree with your characterization of those who listen to "teachers and preachers."
I said people who let preachers and teachers spoon feed them, meaning they DON'T read the Bible for themselves.

Most people I know of who listen to others regarding the Bible also read the Bible themselves.
You must attend some kind of non-denominational church then. That's the only place that I know where you'll find "most" people who actually read the Bible on their own time. Of course, there are some in the mainline denominations, but they are rare exceptions. That's a big reason why I won't attend a mainline denominational church ever again.

Whatever errors those readers might make, the fact is that they are making good-faith efforts to know the Bible and deserve credit for their effort. So to characterize them as stupid or foolish is not only cruel but a betrayal of their trusting Christians.
I did not characterize them as stupid. Foolish, perhaps. For it is foolish to only go by what someone tells you the Bible says instead of checking it out for yourself, too.

LOL--It looks like "the enemy" makes good use of the Bible because reading it can make a doubter out of anybody. It made me a doubter.
Yes, it is the enemy who led you astray, not the word of God. The same enemy who led Eve astray with his misuse of the word of God.

But anyway, as far as the word of God is concerned, not everybody believes the message about righteousness. The same sun that makes some clay soft makes other clay hard. But that's what this life is all about. God is seeing who will love righteousness and become soft and pliable in his hands as a servant of righteousness, and who will not. The former will inherit the kingdom to come at the resurrection. The latter will not.
 
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