What if both sides are wrong in C&A debate?

[BJ Bear]

Hi!

There is another perspective; what if they are both right?

Yes, the question is whether the claim is Scripturally verifiable.

I am known on the Armimian and Calvinism Boards as a Middle Man. Both Arminianism and Calvinism believe Grace comes first, and that it effectively trespasses Sinners uninvited.

How can that be a true statement unless there are unstated assumptions? For example, an unstated assumption that, "Grace comes first, and that it effectively trespasses [some] Sinners uninvited." Otherwise, in this instance what happens to double predestination and the acronym?

Both believe we are Chosen, something limits the Atonement; and we have to Persevere.

How do both groups logically and truthfully conclude that something limits the atonement? I ask logically and truthfully because Scripture plainly states the contrary.

My guess is that if we break out the bright light and the rubber hose to examine their positive statements in this regard we will find and ageee that it is an attempt on their part to make the law salvific rather than the Gospel of Christ.

In other words, they are using their natural knowledge of God, the law, to reach their conclusion rather than the specific Christian revelation.

“But now the righteousness [justification] of God without [apart from] the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;” (Rom 3:21, KJV)

Both believe we're Justified through Faith, apart from Works, God is Sovereign; and so on...

Now there's an elephant that would have to be eaten one bite at a time.

They may agree, but using their definitions are they right according to the immediate context of Scripture?

It's like making Chili; it doesn't matter if you put the meat or the beans in first, if all the ingredients are the same. It comes together, the next day the pots taste the same...

I like the analogy but it breaks when one affirms that there are no left overs when it comes to the objective true gospel of Jesus Christ to and for all men

 

[Shilohsfoal]

That is an interesting response. What does He, the One through whom all men are created, say is going to happen?

“31. ¶When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:..” (Mat 25:31-32ff, KJV)

Yes, and he tell some who claim to have done many wonderful works in his name that he never knew them.

Mathew 7 :22-23
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


Theres Alot of people who think they are doing works in his name who were never given to him. He doesnt know them.

 

[ReverendRV]

Hi!

Yes, the question is whether the claim is Scripturally verifiable.

How can that be a true statement unless there are unstated assumptions? For example, an unstated assumption that, "Grace comes first, and that it effectively trespasses [some] Sinners uninvited." Otherwise, in this instance what happens to double predestination and the acronym?

How do both groups logically and truthfully conclude that something limits the atonement? I ask logically and truthfully because Scripture plainly states the contrary.

My guess is that if we break out the bright light and the rubber hose to examine their positive statements in this regard we will find and ageee that it is an attempt on their part to make the law salvific rather than the Gospel of Christ.

In other words, they are using their natural knowledge of God, the law, to reach their conclusion rather than the specific Christian revelation.

“But now the righteousness [justification] of God without [apart from] the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;” (Rom 3:21, KJV)

Now there's an elephant that would have to be eaten one bite at a time.

They may agree, but using their definitions are they right according to the immediate context of Scripture?

I like the analogy but it breaks when one affirms that there are no left overs when it comes to the objective true gospel of Jesus Christ to and for all men

Thanks...

This is the way I like to Debate; one point or question at a time, one person at a time. If I spoke on everything you said, I would write a small book. But if you want to spend the time, we can eventually get to everything...

In the Book of John, we see Jesus teach Nicodemus about the New Birth. He says, 'The wind blows where it wants, who knows where it comes from or where it goes; such is the Spirit'. The emphasis is 'who knows', this means the Holy Spirit was not invited. This will be our starting point. After we parse out the trespassing of the Spirit, it will be your turn to ask a question. I hope you see the benefit of getting one thing straight, before you get everything straight. Agreeing on a point, helps the Debate later down the line; as we refer back to Fundamental agreements...

I spend most of my CARM time on the Arminianism and Calvinism Board...

 

[GeneZ]

Maybe you're misinterpreting the meaning of "all men"?

Why do you "choose" to believe that? Could it be? Free will?

Or, are you under the compulsion of sovereignty, again?

Now? If God is truly sovereign?

What is to stop God from granting man free will? Freedom within a designated domain assigned to man, by God, if that is what He wants to do?
He is sovereign and will do as He pleases.

How did God overcome the obstacle to the tyranny of the flesh over our soul?

God's empowering grace will overcome our the sin nature of the flesh.. while we remain fully confessed of our sins (1 John 1:9).
When the Holy Spirit takes over and suppresses a man's flesh? It sets the soul of that man free to choose, being set free from the tyranny of the fallen nature over his soul.

Why are you so slow to get this? God found a way..... Its not impossible as you make it to sound.
Not as hopeless as you make it to sound.

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." 2 Cor 3:17​

​

The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit ​

is capacity of life and prosperity of soul." Rom 8:6​

Hyper Calvinists are being robbed by a lie. By a lie that naturally appeals to their flesh.

grace and truth....

 

[GeneZ]

Who is speaking? The LORD is speaking. To whom is He speaking? The crowds that came to Capernaum to seek Him. Why did He say that to them? It is a proclamation of deity for He will lose no man and will raise up all men.

Mistake.... Not all men. Jesus said "all that are given to me." He did not say, all men are given to me.

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me,
but raise them up at the last day."

John 6:37-39

In essence... Jesus was saying that all who become saved? Its the Father's will that he shall lose none of them.

Its nothing to do with saving all of humanity.

If that's not what you intended? Maybe, you should rephrase what you were saying?

grace and peace ...........

 

[BJ Bear]

Mistake.... Not all men. Jesus said "all that are given to me." He did not say, all men are given to me.

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me,
but raise them up at the last day."

John 6:37-39

In essence... Jesus was saying that all who become saved? Its the Father's will that he shall lose none of them.

Its nothing to do with saving all of humanity.

If that's not what you intended? Maybe, you should rephrase what you were saying?

grace and peace ...........

This is a question regarding the person and work of Christ.

Who is going to be raised? All men.

Who did the Father give Him? All men.

How did the Father do this? According to God's set purpose and will he raised Him up, for example, "When I am lifted up I will drag all men unto me," etc.

 

[BJ Bear]

Thanks...

This is the way I like to Debate; one point or question at a time, one person at a time. If I spoke on everything you said, I would write a small book. But if you want to spend the time, we can eventually get to everything...

Ok, let's do it that way.

In the Book of John, we see Jesus teach Nicodemus about the New Birth. He says, 'The wind blows where it wants, who knows where it comes from or where it goes; such is the Spirit'. The emphasis is 'who knows', this means the Holy Spirit was not invited.

I think there are some unstated assumptions above because I don't see the logical connection between the Spirit going where it wills and the claim of the Spirit not being invited. Invited by whom or Whom? Are you writing in essence that Christians now do not know where the Spirit wills to go? Thanks.

This will be our starting point. After we parse out the trespassing of the Spirit, it will be your turn to ask a question. I hope you see the benefit of getting one thing straight, before you get everything straight. Agreeing on a point, helps the Debate later down the line; as we refer back to Fundamental agreements...

Sounds good.

I spend most of my CARM time on the Arminianism and Calvinism Board...

Ok, most of mine is spent on the Lutheran board.

 

[BJ Bear]

Maybe you're misinterpreting the meaning of "all men"?

In this instance I am referring to all those from Adam to the last man that will be.

 

[GeneZ]

This is a question regarding the person and work of Christ.

Who is going to be raised? All men.

Jesus did not say 'all men.'
But, only those whom the Father gives to him.

" I shall lose none of all those he has given me,​

but raise them up at the last day."​

​

grace and peace .........

 

[ReverendRV]

Ok, let's do it that way.

I think there are some unstated assumptions above because I don't see the logical connection between the Spirit going where it wills and the claim of the Spirit not being invited. Invited by whom or Whom? Are you writing in essence that Christians now do not know where the Spirit wills to go? Thanks.

Sounds good.

Ok, most of mine is spent on the Lutheran board.

My point about Jesus saying who knows where the Spirit comes from and where the Spirit goes, is that this is a picture of Regeneration before Pentecost; an example of Old Testament Regeneration. The Spirit would come, then go; but not indwell. The Gospels, the first four books of the New Testament, could easily be the last four books of the Old Testament. The reason for this is because much of what occurred in the Gospels, was still under the Old Covenant dispensation; showing Jesus keeping the Old Covenant...

As for the people Jesus was talking about; which one of them knew where the Spirit came from?? Theologically, this means that the Spirit was not invited by the people that he visited...

 

[BJ Bear]

My point about Jesus saying who knows where the Spirit comes from and where the Spirit goes, is that this is a picture of Regeneration before Pentecost; an example of Old Testament Regeneration. The Spirit would come, then go; but not indwell. The Gospels, the first four books of the New Testament, could easily be the last four books of the Old Testament. The reason for this is because much of what occurred in the Gospels, was still under the Old Covenant dispensation; showing Jesus keeping the Old Covenant...

So the above is an interpretation rather than anything Scripture explicitly or implicitly says?

As for the people Jesus was talking about; which one of them knew where the Spirit came from?? Theologically, this means that the Spirit was not invited by the people that he visited...

Am I wrong to think you are you alluding to John 3? If you are alluding to John 3 then are you writing that those who are born of the Spirit cease to be born of the Spirit because it is in the gospels, therefore, being born of the Spirit is part of an, "Old covenant dispensation" and the Spirit will go from them?

I don't see how what you posted above accurately reflects what Scripture says.

 

[ReverendRV]

So the above is an interpretation rather than anything Scripture explicitly or implicitly says?

Am I wrong to think you are you alluding to John 3? If you are alluding to John 3 then are you writing that those who are born of the Spirit cease to be born of the Spirit because it is in the gospels, therefore, being born of the Spirit is part of an, "Old covenant dispensation" and the Spirit will go from them?

I don't see how what you posted above accurately reflects what Scripture says.

I will talk to you; if you want to listen. Otherwise I have a great discussion going on elsewhere here...

 

[BJ Bear]

Jesus did not say 'all men.'
But, only those whom the Father gives to him.

" I shall lose none of all those he has given me,​

but raise them up at the last day."​

​

grace and peace .........

That sure looks like an equivocation. Jesus plainly said He will raise those that the Father drags to Him. “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” (Joh 6:44, KJVA)

And Jesus plainly said that God through the crucifixion (and consequent resurrection) will drag all men to Him. “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” (Joh 12:32, KJVA)

This is a Christological matter.

As is the verse you are apparently alluding to from John 17. Jesus said it is the hour to glorify Him, the Son, that He might glorify the Father. “These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:” (Joh 17:1, KJVA)

The Father gave the Son power over all flesh. That is all men. Period. Jesus saying He was given the power over all flesh, or all men, that He should give eternal life to as many as the Father has given Him is not saying or implying that all won't be raised or that He shouldn't give eternal life to as many as the Father has given Him. “As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.” (Joh 17:2, KJVA)

Jesus then states the eternal life which He gives to all flesh, or all men. Eternal life is that they are to know the Father and the Son, the one that He sent. “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (Joh 17:3, KJVA)

That means the distinctions made by some regarding the call of God are figments of some man's imagination.

 

[BJ Bear]

I will talk to you; if you want to listen. Otherwise I have a great discussion going on elsewhere here...

I did, "listen," closely to what you wrote. Distinguishing between your interpretation and what is actually Scripturally verifiable is evidence that I listened closely.

Without further in context, immediate context, Scriptural explanation on your part you are only demonstrating why at least one side in the C&A debate is wrong.

How is anyone who hasn't already bought into your unstated assumptions supposed to follow the logic of your posts? For example, Jesus in John 3 spoke of those who are born of the Spirit rather than those who will be born of the Spirit. That places it squarely within the timeframe of the gospels. Jesus told the disciples that God gives the Spirit to those who ask, again within the timeframe of the gospels, etc.

Peace.

 

[GeneZ]

That sure looks like an equivocation. Jesus plainly said He will raise those that the Father drags to Him. “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” (Joh 6:44, KJVA)

And Jesus plainly said that God through the crucifixion (and consequent resurrection) will drag all men to Him. “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” (Joh 12:32, KJVA)

Calvinists are hard headed and wanted to cling to their hatred for God. You need to be dragged.

Other Christians? They can sense God's love ( and will accept being drawn).

The Lord has appeared of old to me, saying:
“Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love;
Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you."


Jeremiah 31:3​

 

[BJ Bear]

Calvinists are hard headed and wanted to cling to their hatred for God. You need to be dragged.

Other Christians? They can sense God's love ( and will accept being drawn).

The Lord has appeared of old to me, saying:
“Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love;
Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you."


Jeremiah 31:3​

In either case the active, the one drawing is God, and the passive, the one being drawn is man, through the everlasting love of God in Christ Jesus who was crucified for our sins and raised for our justification.

 

[GeneZ]

In either case the active, the one drawing is God, and the passive, the one being drawn is man, through the everlasting love of God in Christ Jesus who was crucified for our sins and raised for our justification.

Keep in mind. The worst reprobates Paul mentions in Romans 1:18-20 were drawn by God.
God made them to know He is real. They rejected!
They were not dragged into the Kingdom. Were they?



The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness
and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since
what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made
it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—
his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood
from what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

Note! ...........................

"so that they are without excuse."​

The Calvinist influenced reprobate could scream in his defense... "You refused to drag me!" (he would have excuse)

...............................

 

[BJ Bear]

Keep in mind. The worst reprobates Paul mentions in Romans 1:18-20 were drawn by God.
God made them to know He is real. They rejected!
They were not dragged into the Kingdom. Were they?



The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness
and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since
what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made
it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—
his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood
from what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

Note! ...........................

"so that they are without excuse."​

The Calvinist influenced reprobate could scream in his defense... "You refused to drag me!" (he would have excuse)

...............................

I think it is great that we are writing of context.

The only thing I would add is that the passage cited above is not the drawing or dragging to Christ which occured and occurs through His crucifixion and resurrection. Paul describes that as the Father giving all men faith in raising Him from the dead, Acts 17:31.

The work of the church or body of Christ is to bring that faith, which is outside of us, and apply it to all men by baptizing and teaching, Matthew 28:19ff.

Peace.

 

[GeneZ]

I think it is great that we are writing of context.

The only thing I would add is that the passage cited above is not the drawing or dragging to Christ which occured and occurs through His crucifixion and resurrection. Paul describes that as the Father giving all men faith in raising Him from the dead, Acts 17:31.

The work of the church or body of Christ is to bring that faith, which is outside of us, and apply it to all men by baptizing and teaching, Matthew 28:19ff.

Peace.

Just for clarification...

Not everyone who calls them self a Christian understands.... That faith is the knowing and being able by grace to believe, messages we learn from Scripture. Faith has its foundation built upon passages we have come to understand and know.

Faith not about some emotional, undefined feeling, towards God. Like saying Rosary. Or, tithing just to receive blessing. Faith is the knowing of truth accurately. A faith that translates into our ability to trust God according to His Word. Truth that we have understood and accepted.

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message
(rhema) is heard through the word about Christ."

Romans 10:17​

The 'hearing' here means the comprehension and seeing (understanding) what was revealed in sound teaching.

False teaching = bad faith. = "wood, hay, and stubble."

That is why God deliberately has us go through unpleasant trials, as to test to see if what we have chosen to believe is truly sound doctrine!
God's grace is only granted and applied to what is accurate and true.

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved ​

by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold ​

that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the ​

revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, ​

yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the goal of your ​

faith—the salvation of your souls." 1 Peter 6-9​

​

The Lord desires that of all who believe.... No one is spared. All will be tested. Not all who believed are happy in this lifetime for that reason.

grace and peace .........

 

[Theophilus]

I did, "listen," closely to what you wrote. Distinguishing between your interpretation and what is actually Scripturally verifiable is evidence that I listened closely.

Without further in context, immediate context, Scriptural explanation on your part you are only demonstrating why at least one side in the C&A debate is wrong.

How is anyone who hasn't already bought into your unstated assumptions supposed to follow the logic of your posts? For example, Jesus in John 3 spoke of those who are born of the Spirit rather than those who will be born of the Spirit. That places it squarely within the timeframe of the gospels. Jesus told the disciples that God gives the Spirit to those who ask, again within the timeframe of the gospels, etc.

Peace.

The Calvinists like to run the show and when they are questioned they do not play very well with others in the playground.