What is Calvinism's good news?

Reformedguy said:
Great. So how are they saved without hearing the gospel? Or even understand something they have no concept of?
Click to expand...
You're missing the point: One must have the gospel revealed to them in some way, even if, like Cornelius, they are a God-fearer in as far as they know the truth. To have the capacity to understand something does not mean they are aware of that capacity or aware of the information that they have the capacity to understand. A child that has the mental capacity for understanding quantum physics is not aware of it or the specific information about quantum physics.

Just like the fact that grace has kept sin from us from being as bad as we could be, grace has mitigated the power of sin over that which we were created to know, created to be. We are created in the image of God, created in his likeness. It is within us to be in relationship with our creator. Grace harkens to that part of us, that ingrained nature that is empty and wanting, that proverbial God shaped hole that cannot be filled with anything else but our creator! Grace allows us to realize this truth when confronted by the gospel.


Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
I think that I have caused you to misunderstand my intent. When I said, "In order for Z to occur, we first have to accomplish X and Y." I am not talking about human activity: The context of that statement is about the activity of grace, and how it must do X and Y in order to accomplish Z! The "we" in my statement refers to our logical assessment of the process of grace accomplishing Z.
Click to expand...
Doug, huh??? You said, "In order for Z to occur, (WE-the sinner) first have to accomplish X & Y. Then you say, "I am not talking about human activity..." Okay, slow down because this is muddling the waters. You make two contradicting statements here. You do say we FIRST have to accomplish X & Y, what is X & Y that needs to be accomplished by the sinner, so that Z can occur? Why use letters Doug, it's confusing, can you provide the meaning of each letter and what each letter stands for?

Dear friend, this by the way, is not Grace, it's works, no matter how ones dresses it up. The Gospel message is not good advice or a DIY project but a free gift with no strings attached, no gotcha clause. How marvelous is this Doug?? Calvinism is falsely accused of portraying an unloving God, who is a blood thirsty deity seeking blood sacrifices, seeks only to punish & torture. And demands what people cannot possibly obtain by a standard set too high by God for everyone to achieve.

As you can see, the Gospel is free, it's all of Grace. Not demanding but giving, for the ungodly! How is this not a Divine Love Act of God? How rich is his Grace & Mercy?​



TibiasDad said:
I have never said it is...I am making a linear argument about the process of grace in its various stages. Prevenient or Seeking Grace, Saving Grace, Sanctifying Grace, Sustaining Grace, Securing Grace. God's undeserved favor at different points of time. One grace, multiple objectives.
Click to expand...
Doug please relax, take a minute, dear friend. Where in the Bible can I find what you are presenting here? These various stages of Grace? Especially from a unregenerated sinner.
TibiasDad said:
Grace alone through faith alone! Which is a tandem operation, so it should be "by grace through faith alone" are we given salvation. Salvation does not come from our own ingenuity, integrity, or input, and can never be merited by our actions. God is never obligated to extend goodness because we have worked to accomplish a standard or requirement. Forgiveness cannot be bought, only given, and we never deserve it. It is always gracious!


Doug
Click to expand...
Thank you, yes I agree, but even our Faith Doug is a gift of Grace! He makes the blind to see, the deaf to hear, the lame to walk, by the power of the Holy Spirit, through the proclamation of the Gospel!

I pray that you understand.
 
TibiasDad said:
You're missing the point: One must have the gospel revealed to them in some way, even if, like Cornelius, they are a God-fearer in as far as they know the truth. To have the capacity to understand something does not mean they are aware of that capacity or aware of the information that they have the capacity to understand. A child that has the mental capacity for understanding quantum physics is not aware of it or the specific information about quantum physics.

Just like the fact that grace has kept sin from us from being as bad as we could be, grace has mitigated the power of sin over that which we were created to know, created to be. We are created in the image of God, created in his likeness. It is within us to be in relationship with our creator. Grace harkens to that part of us, that ingrained nature that is empty and wanting, that proverbial God shaped hole that cannot be filled with anything else but our creator! Grace allows us to realize this truth when confronted by the gospel.


Doug
Click to expand...
The Bible is clear that one must hear the gospel in order to believe. Giving understanding to someone God knows is never going to hear seems rather pointless
 
Ladodgers6 said:
Thank you, yes I agree, but even our Faith Doug is a gift of Grace! He makes the blind to see, the deaf to hear, the lame to walk, by the power of the Holy Spirit, through the proclamation of the Gospel!​

I pray that you understand.
Click to expand...
My trust is something only I can give. Only God can give me something to trust in, and that is his promise to save all that trust in him. So without God's graciousness toward us, we would have nothing to believe in, no alternative in which to place my trust! But Salvation is not gained, not given by God, without us giving him our trust.

God's revelation persuades me to trust in him, speaks to the inner heart of my being and calls me to have faith in his word. But I must give him my trust! Calvinism and Arminianism are not divergent at this point, but the irresistiblity of grace is the watershed. God makes me see the truth through the gospel, but my trust is mine to give by the divine choice of making me in his image. It is God's choice and sovereign right to be gracious; it is man's to trust in God's grace. That is why we are told to believe, to have faith, to trust in the Lord!



Doug
 
Reformedguy said:
The Bible is clear that one must hear the gospel in order to believe. Giving understanding to someone God knows is never going to hear seems rather pointless
Click to expand...
Again, you are equivocating. Is hear meant in the auditory sense, or the understanding, comprehension sense? And is the capacity to understand the same as the experience of understanding? If my example of the child has the capacity for understanding quantum mechanics/physics, but is not ever put in a position to learn, does that negate the capacity? Some never reach their capabilities, but that is not a lack of capacity.



Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
Again, you are equivocating. Is hear meant in the auditory sense, or the understanding, comprehension sense? And is the capacity to understand the same as the experience of understanding? If my example of the child has the capacity for understanding quantum mechanics/physics, but is not ever put in a position to learn, does that negate the capacity? Some never reach their capabilities, but that is not a lack of capacity.



Doug
Click to expand...
Doug, millions throughout history never heard of the God of the Bible let alone the gospel. Did the recieve understanding as well? And if so for what?
 
TibiasDad said:
My trust is something only I can give. Only God can give me something to trust in, and that is his promise to save all that trust in him. So without God's graciousness toward us, we would have nothing to believe in, no alternative in which to place my trust! But Salvation is not gained, not given by God, without us giving him our trust.
Click to expand...
Yes, Doug I understand your paradigm, but unregenerated sinners will not believe or trust God at all. Their fallen disposition is contrary in nature to God. I believe I remember you telling me that you do hold to Total Depravity, and if it's the Classical Arminian view TD, then you have a issue to work out, which cannot be fleshed out. I also struggled with this, when I faced it head on with my Calvinist friend. You can say Grace Alone, just like the Catholics, until you read the fine print, then it turns out to be something else, which is not Grace Alone! Grace Alone, Doug, means ALONE, there's nothing else added, but all of it given to undeserved sinners as a free gift.​


TibiasDad said:
God's revelation persuades me to trust in him, speaks to the inner heart of my being and calls me to have faith in his word. But I must give him my trust! Calvinism and Arminianism are not divergent at this point, but the irresistiblity of grace is the watershed. God makes me see the truth through the gospel, but my trust is mine to give by the divine choice of making me in his image. It is God's choice and sovereign right to be gracious; it is man's to trust in God's grace. That is why we are told to believe, to have faith, to trust in the Lord!



Doug
Click to expand...
Doug, God brings you to justifying Faith in the Gospel by Grace Alone, the reason you believe, and I agree with you, it's you who believe and trust in God, but this comes by the renewing of your mind & heart as the Holy Spirit is revealing it to you. In other words, you are regenerated by the Holy Spirit in Christ Jesus, as Arminius himself says. That without this no one would believe, or even desire, or seek God.

"But in his lapse and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself. either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be REGENERATED and renewed in his intellect, affections, or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he maybe qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good."---Arminius

I have no problem with this, because Arminius understand that man will not chose God, let alone want to, have the affections to seek him, trust in him, or believe him. But my inquiry still stands, when one is regenerated by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, why would anyone resist, reject, run away, hide, or whatever, once their intellect, affections, will and all the faculties have been renewed, regenerated, to see, hear, understand God and what's he done in his Son for you and me?

You say that God's revelation persuaded you to trust in him, speaks to your inner heart your being and calls you to have faith in his word. Okay, good, how is this not Regeneration??? As described by Arminius himself???​
 
Reformedguy said:
Doug, millions throughout history never heard of the God of the Bible let alone the gospel. Did the recieve understanding as well? And if so for what?
Click to expand...
They receive the capacity for understanding the truth, by which they can, upon hearing the gospel, comprehend the truth. At this point, they will choose to believe and trust in what they have heard or disbelieve what they have heard.

Grace has provided us every capacity to understand the gospel message, which we would be incapable of having brought to us, much less comprehend without it. Again, capacity to understand is not the same as having actually heard or being presented with the gospel.

Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
They receive the capacity for understanding the truth, by which they can, upon hearing the gospel, comprehend the truth. At this point, they will choose to believe and trust in what they have heard or disbelieve what they have heard.

Grace has provided us every capacity to understand the gospel message, which we would be incapable of having brought to us, much less comprehend without it. Again, capacity to understand is not the same as having actually heard or being presented with the gospel.

Doug
Click to expand...
Your ignoring the obvious. They never heard it.
 
TibiasDad said:
They receive the capacity for understanding the truth, by which they can, upon hearing the gospel, comprehend the truth. At this point, they will choose to believe and trust in what they have heard or disbelieve what they have heard.

Grace has provided us every capacity to understand the gospel message, which we would be incapable of having brought to us, much less comprehend without it. Again, capacity to understand is not the same as having actually heard or being presented with the gospel.

Doug
Click to expand...
Not without the Grace of God in regenerating dead sinners faculties first, Doug. Arminius understood this point. Why do you have the need to fight it, tooth and nail is beyond me.
 
Ladodgers6 said:
Yes, Doug I understand your paradigm, but unregenerated sinners will not believe or trust God at all. Their fallen disposition is contrary in nature to God. I believe I remember you telling me that you do hold to Total Depravity, and if it's the Classical Arminian view TD, then you have a issue to work out, which cannot be fleshed out. I also struggled with this, when I faced it head on with my Calvinist friend. You can say Grace Alone, just like the Catholics, until you read the fine print, then it turns out to be something else, which is not Grace Alone! Grace Alone, Doug, means ALONE, there's nothing else added, but all of it given to undeserved sinners as a free gift.
Click to expand...
It is grace through faith alone....you have a propensity for leaving the faith part out. It is not Grace alone, it is grace and faith as a tandem! Grace is God's action, faith is ours! The fact that it is gracious, faith cannot be construed as works or meritorious, thus, Grace is the effectual power, not faith. But faith is still a part of the equation of salvation being effected. Grace alone is the effectual power in salvation, but without faith grace is not enacted by God. Faith is God's contingency factor for man's involvement, thus it is required. Salvation is still free, because it is gracious, and nothing man can do makes man worthy.
Ladodgers6 said:
Doug, God brings you to justifying Faith in the Gospel by Grace Alone, the reason you believe, and I agree with you, it's you who believe and trust in God, but this comes by the renewing of your mind & heart as the Holy Spirit is revealing it to you.
Click to expand...
I am right with you up understanding, but then you had to rephrase it into Calvin-speak....

Ladodgers6 said:
In other words, you are regenerated by the Holy Spirit in Christ Jesus, as Arminius himself says. That without this no one would believe, or even desire, or seek God.
Click to expand...

Another watershed between our theological understanding comes at this point. Sin has totally affected every aspect of man's being. We are totally fallen short of the glory of God, and totally depraved as a result. This does not mean we are nonfunctional in the sense of being inanimate, it means that sans God's gracious intervention we cannot do anything but move in the opposite direction of God.

The fullness regeneration need not be reached, but only that the power of God to overcome the power of sin within us. It is unbelievers that are cut to the heart and told to believe, repent and be baptized, and these unbelievers can clearly comprehend the import of what has been preached. This could not happen sans God's gracious intervention. The sovereign power of God can override sins ability to deceive us without the full reconciliation of relationship and granting of life. It is the reconciliation, the restoration of personal relationship, that is why we have life, for this when the Spirit begins to live within us. This is when we are born again, when we, as unbelieving sinners, realize the truth of our condition in relation to God, believe the truth we have been told, and place our trust in God's promises to do what he says. Reconciliation, the restoration of relationship, is complete when we believe, and only then, are we "given the right to become the children of God" and are born again.

We both agree that God's movement is first, and that man is utterly helpless without God's gracious intervention into our situation. But to say that this requires regeneration is not logically necessary or scripturally demonstrated. Unbelievers hear, comprehend, consider, and both become believers and reject what they have been told.


Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
It is grace through faith alone....you have a propensity for leaving the faith part out. It is not Grace alone, it is grace and faith as a tandem!
Click to expand...
Before I reply to the rest of your post, you disagree with Arminius? You deny that sinners need to be renewed, regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Now you deny that sinners are saved by Grace Alone? Am I understanding your comment above correctly?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top