What is Calvinism's good news?

I am not a classical Arminian, in that total depravity equals total incapacity. I do not need to be totally incapacitated to be totally captivated by sin. If I am only, for argument’s sake, 50% incapable to understand, the fact that it is by grace means that I do not deserve it 100%. Deserving has nothing to do with capacity. Being 1% wrong, means I am 100% guilty and thus 0% deserving of God’s favor.

In my view, Grace means that my works are totally meaningless and without effect, so the capacity for my ability to understand is meaningless. I don’t deserve anything good from God, period! God cannot be obligated to help me by anything I can do, period! Therefore, in my opinion, the question of capacity to do anything is moot!

I do not deny that Grace alone is the effectual power, nor that I am completely undeserving of anything good that God does for me, neither do I deny that I can do nothing to earn or necessitate God acting in my behalf But I believe that my believing in Christ is necessary and my trust is mine alone to give. It is by grace, through faith that I am saved!


Doug
It cannot be both ways, Doug. It's either by Grace Alone or Works; ability apart from Grace that saves. I also had a very hard time trying to defend the Arminian position of PG, when faced with the overwhelming evidence of the Bible. I could never understand why people have such a hard time giving God all the glory and praise to saving wretched sinners in the first place. I agree with you, that it's your faith in believing the Gospel, but it was first given as a free gift. That is why Christ says, let those who have ears, hear, and those who have eyes, see. Why Christ used the analogy of the Physician who heals the sick.

If God said, those who can see the stars in sky will be saved. But are you physically and legally blind, how can you be saved? You have two eye balls but cannot see. What now? But if God gives you the sight to see the stars, and are saved. It's your eyes who sees, but it's by the Grace of God Alone that you can see, as he freely gave the sight to see in first place, by Grace Alone! This is what's make God's Grace so amazing, because he made a Promise, and he is the faithful who keeps it, where we can't! So he keeps and fulfills everything in the Promise of the Gospel announcement that is accomplished in his Son!​
 
It cannot be both ways, Doug. It's either by Grace Alone or Works; ability apart from Grace that saves. I also had a very hard time trying to defend the Arminian position of PG, when faced with the overwhelming evidence of the Bible. I could never understand why people have such a hard time giving God all the glory and praise to saving wretched sinners in the first place. I agree with you, that it's your faith in believing the Gospel, but it was first given as a free gift. That is why Christ says, let those who have ears, hear, and those who have eyes, see. Why Christ used the analogy of the Physician who heals the sick.

If God said, those who can see the stars in sky will be saved. But are you physically and legally blind, how can you be saved? You have two eye balls but cannot see. What now? But if God gives you the sight to see the stars, and are saved. It's your eyes who sees, but it's by the Grace of God Alone that you can see, as he freely gave the sight to see in first place, by Grace Alone! This is what's make God's Grace so amazing, because he made a Promise, and he is the faithful who keeps it, where we can't! So he keeps and fulfills everything in the Promise of the Gospel announcement that is accomplished in his Son!​
If natural revelation were enough to save a man's soul, there would be no need for special revelation, or even the Gospel of Christ, i.e. His death, burial, resurrection, and sighting.

One can argue against this all they want, but if they want to believe natural revelation is enough, then it is enough, period.

These folks have wandered off into myths, not enduring sound doctrine; 2 Timothy 4:3-4.
 
If natural revelation were enough to save a man's soul, there would be no need for special revelation, or even the Gospel of Christ, i.e. His death, burial, resurrection, and sighting.

One can argue against this all they want, but if they want to believe natural revelation is enough, then it is enough, period.

These folks have wandered off into myths, not enduring sound doctrine; 2 Timothy 4:3-4.
They say it's not Gospel saving Grace, though. So, I don't why natural revelation is brought in for, when God says that the Gospel is power unto salvation. I think they are saying that natural revelation gives sinners some kinda of knowledge of the truth or ability to seek God or something, I don't know. I ask for a defined explanation, and I get a sentence or two.

Sinners are either saved by Grace Alone or not, that simple. There's no need to make needs complicated or muddle the waters to confuse what is taught in Scripture.

I told Doug, that if God told us, that whosoever can see the stars in heaven, will be saved. But we are all physically and legally blind, how can we be saved then? But if God gives us sight to see the stars in heaven through the proclamation of the Gospel, and are saved, then it's by Grace Alone!

29 And Levi made him a great feast in his house, and there was a large company of tax collectors and others reclining at table with them. 30 And the Pharisees and their scribes grumbled at his disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” 31 And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”
 
LA,

As a Calvinist, you would hold to common grace, which is, in many ways, identical to Prevenient Grace. The grace of God that mitigates and harnesses the reign of sin in the heart of man. This is a sovereign act that, like as to the oceans, says to sin, you can only go this far and no farther! This is effectual across the proverbial board! Thus, we are not as bad as we could be, yet we are still captives to sin.

Paul teaches that sin is not held against us where there is no law, but yet death reigned; that is prevenient grace. (Rom 5:13-14) Again, it is grace that goes before, that prepares the way ahead of, and for something yet to come. Paul preached to the Athenians in Acts 17, saying:

"24“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

29“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Everything God has ever done was for this purpose, that we would seek for him, perhaps reach out for him and find him. That describes grace that goes before, prevenient grace. All of this makes possible the event of being born again, saved.

After Adam and Eve sinned, God drove them from the garden to prevent their eating of the Tree of Life. (Gen 3:21-24) That was an act of prevenient grace.

The light that shines on every man that comes into the world (John 1:9) is grace going before.

There are so many things that must happen in order for the cross to occur, and all of them are acts of grace that goes before. The heart of man, left to its own and on its own, has nothing to help it, nothing to believe in, no hope for any new direction. But God did not abandon his creation, and immediately informs his creation that "the seed of the woman" will crush the head of the serpent (Gen 3:15), this is grace going before.

Prevenient grace does everything needed to bring the gospel to us and for us to be able to grasp its message. Without it we would have no option but death, nothing to turn to, no way of knowing our condition before God, and no means of salvation!

That the gospel is here, that Jesus died and rose again, that man had has not destroyed himself is evidence of the effectualness of Grace that precedes, goes before. It is the behind the scenes work of grace, without which, we can do nothing, know nothing, and have nothing except "a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." (Heb 10:27)


Doug
Doug, first of all, this post doesn't answer the answer the questions I posed, well, let me take that back. You did provide a answer, but it did not address the questions. I am a but tired right now, I need to lay down for a bit, and I'll address why it doesn't address it.
 
Thanks for the explanation. Where can I find this in Scripture? That natural revelation, partially unblocks the affections of Adam's sin?

So do you deny the Arminian position of Prevenient Grace?​

Some Arminians believe that. Here is a scripture. ...

Romans 1:19-20 (KJV)
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

But this is the same prevenient grace that works with the gospel, which Arminians do believe.

John 6:44 (KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Acts 7:51 (KJV) Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Acts 17:27-28 (KJV)
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
 
They say it's not Gospel saving Grace, though. So, I don't why natural revelation is brought in for, when God says that the Gospel is power unto salvation. I think they are saying that natural revelation gives sinners some kinda of knowledge of the truth or ability to seek God or something, I don't know. I ask for a defined explanation, and I get a sentence or two.

Sinners are either saved by Grace Alone or not, that simple. There's no need to make needs complicated or muddle the waters to confuse what is taught in Scripture.

I told Doug, that if God told us, that whosoever can see the stars in heaven, will be saved. But we are all physically and legally blind, how can we be saved then? But if God gives us sight to see the stars in heaven through the proclamation of the Gospel, and are saved, then it's by Grace Alone!

29 And Levi made him a great feast in his house, and there was a large company of tax collectors and others reclining at table with them. 30 And the Pharisees and their scribes grumbled at his disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” 31 And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”
It's plain and simple brother, they have wandered off into myths, it's not they are wandering off into them, it is that they are there now.

There is no need for us to wonder why there is such an aversion to giving God all the glory, and in their teaching there is no way to do that whatsoever.
 
It cannot be both ways, Doug. It's either by Grace Alone or Works; ability apart from Grace that saves. I also had a very hard time trying to defend the Arminian position of PG, when faced with the overwhelming evidence of the Bible. I could never understand why people have such a hard time giving God all the glory and praise to saving wretched sinners in the first place. I agree with you, that it's your faith in believing the Gospel, but it was first given as a free gift. That is why Christ says, let those who have ears, hear, and those who have eyes, see. Why Christ used the analogy of the Physician who heals the sick.

If God said, those who can see the stars in sky will be saved. But are you physically and legally blind, how can you be saved? You have two eye balls but cannot see. What now? But if God gives you the sight to see the stars, and are saved. It's your eyes who sees, but it's by the Grace of God Alone that you can see, as he freely gave the sight to see in first place, by Grace Alone! This is what's make God's Grace so amazing, because he made a Promise, and he is the faithful who keeps it, where we can't! So he keeps and fulfills everything in the Promise of the Gospel announcement that is accomplished in his Son!​
LA,

What part of “works are irrelevant” can be construed as usurping Grace? If faith is a tandem element with grace in direct contrast with works, then faith cannot be works!

I have repeatedly said that Grace is the only effectual element, because God is the only one who can allow reconciliation, the only one with the authority to forgive.

PG implies nothing regarding works, nor can it! Grace is grace, and it is always undeserved! The gracious objectives are many and varied, and include both the revelation of truth and the redemption of the heart/reconciliation of relationship. This is all effected by God alone, period! He alone is responsible for and praised for saving me!

Natural revelation is a result of PG. If God’s grace can cause us to be aware of right and wrong, guilt and innocence, then why not the awareness of our own sin and the offer of forgiveness? Calvinism agrees with natural revelation, and how can a dead/blind/deaf man be aware of this revelation and still be completely unable? Your Calvinism is just as guilty of a ‘half dead, half regenerated’ construct.

The Bible clearly placed faith before the experience of salvation/regeneration/being reborn; the language of the NT never says ‘you must be given faith’ but always you must believe in an active voice! We are condemned or accepted based solely upon our status of belief! (John 3:16-18)


Doug
 
If natural revelation were enough to save a man's soul, there would be no need for special revelation, or even the Gospel of Christ, i.e. His death, burial, resurrection, and sighting.

One can argue against this all they want, but if they want to believe natural revelation is enough, then it is enough, period.

These folks have wandered off into myths, not enduring sound doctrine; 2 Timothy 4:3-4.
Exactly. No one looks at a tree and says hey, I believe in Jesus.
 
I thought you didn’t believe in multiple universe speculations? 🤪


Doug
I don't, unless I'm Dr, Strange...🤣. I will admit, and I have said this a million times, I am the dumbest Christian in Christendom. I am not as smart as you, Douggy. But one thing I do know unequivocally, is that I am saved by Grace Alone! I know, I know, you will say, what about Faith? The reason why I say by Grace Alone, first of all it's Biblical teaching, there's no way around this, no matter how one tries to dance around it, or dress it up, because it's through a Promise Doug, that God said he will do, because we cannot. He's says he's the faithful one, where we are not. It's Christ his Son who fulfills both the Covenant of Works (Law), in the Covenant of Grace (Grace). Christ is the one who is obedient until death. Christ is the one who purchased our Faith and Repentance through his obedience and blood! It's all of Grace, Doug!

We do have Faith in our Faith, to make sure we have enough of it to be saved. We don't MAKE the Cross effectual by our Faith neither! Faith is passive in the Justification of the ungodly apart frame works, Paul says. Which is why Paul makes dichotomy between Works & Gift; one is owed something, the other is a Gift, provided. So, our given Faith; that our mind, heart, eyes, ears are now open by the Holy Spirit of God in Regeneration, we hear, see, understand, and trust, and believe Christ! And this is biblical teaching, dear friend, this is the good news for the ungodly, who were once God haters, enemies of God, carried out all the passions of the flesh and mind, following of course of the world, suppressing the truth in all ungodliness and unrighteousness. By it's by Grace Alone, Doug! That we have Faith, Justification, Sanctification, and all the heavenly blessings, in Christ Alone!

Faith only receives what saves, as the Scripture says, "It Is Finished", because of Christ Alone!

Signing Off

Dr. Strange and the Multiverse...just kidding. Don't believe in that. Take care buddy, hope you are doing well!​
 
I don't, unless I'm Dr, Strange...🤣. I will admit, and I have said this a million times, I am the dumbest Christian in Christendom. I am not as smart as you, Douggy.​
I dispute this more than TULIP....


But one thing I do know unequivocally, is that I am saved by Grace Alone! I know, I know, you will say, what about Faith? The reason why I say by Grace Alone, first of all it's Biblical teaching, there's no way around this, no matter how one tries to dance around it, or dress it up, because it's through a Promise Doug, that God said he will do, because we cannot. He's says he's the faithful one, where we are not. It's Christ his Son who fulfills both the Covenant of Works (Law), in the Covenant of Grace (Grace). Christ is the one who is obedient until death. Christ is the one who purchased our Faith and Repentance through his obedience and blood! It's all of Grace, Doug!​

And I am not saying anything contrary to this... God is the only one that can save us, reconcile us, restore us! We do not and cannot deserve anything good from him, thus, all goodness given by God is graciously given.



We do have Faith in our Faith, to make sure we have enough of it to be saved.​
Might want to check this...in case someone else reads this.

We don't MAKE the Cross effectual by our Faith neither!​
Never said it did...faith believes in whatever has been accomplished by the cross. Faith extends its hands to receive what has been effectually done.

Faith is passive in the Justification of the ungodly apart frame works, Paul says.​
Faith does not have to be passive, and off the top of my head, I cannot recall faith/believing ever being in the passive voice biblically, or any where else.



Which is why Paul makes dichotomy between Works & Gift; one is owed something, the other is a Gift, provided.​
I agree completely...

So, our given Faith; that our mind, heart, eyes, ears are now open by the Holy Spirit of God in Regeneration, we hear, see, understand, and trust, and believe Christ! And this is biblical teaching, dear friend, this is the good news for the ungodly, who were once God haters, enemies of God, carried out all the passions of the flesh and mind, following of course of the world, suppressing the truth in all ungodliness and unrighteousness.​
Illumination, conviction, calling is not regeneration, it leads toward regeneration but is not it.


By it's by Grace Alone, Doug! That we have Faith, Justification, Sanctification, and all the heavenly blessings, in Christ Alone!​
Again, I have repeatedly said that God is the only who can save, and anything he does for us is undeserved and is thus gracious. No matter what we do, we are never deserving of his gift. Even after salvation, we do not deserve his blessings.




Faith only receives what saves, as the Scripture says, "It Is Finished", because of Christ Alone!​
Rom 1:17For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Faith is always active, from first to last.


Signing Off

Dr. Strange and the Multiverse...just kidding. Don't believe in that. Take care buddy, hope you are doing well!​

I am fine, and pray the grace of God will be with you as you make a stand for Christ, by whose blood we have found forgiveness and entrance into the Kingdom of the King Eternal as heirs and joint heirs with Christ; to him be honor and glory, wisdom and power for ever!


Doug
 
I don't remember the post that you stated by natural revelation. Allow me to quote an excerpt from one of my top 5 theologians, R.C Sproul, on natural revelation.

"Natural theology is something we acquire. It is the result of either human speculation, viewing nature as a neutral object-in-itself, or of human reception of information given by the Creator in and through his creation. The second approach views nature not as a neutral object-in-itself that is mute, but as a theater of divine revelation where information is transmitted through the created order.

From the sixteenth century until the beginning of the twentieth, no Reformed theologian I know has denied the validity of natural theology derived from natural revelation. The strong antipathy in our day, to theology based on unaided human speculation has brought in its wake a widespread and wholesale rejection of all natural theology.

This departure, in part is a reaction against Enlightenment rationalism, and is a departure from historic Reformed theology and from biblical theology.

Both Roman Catholicism and historic Reformed theology embraced natural theology gleaned from natural revelation. The reason for this substantial agreement is because the Bible, which both sides regarded as a special revelation (meaning Scripture), clearly teaches that, in addition to God's revelation of himself in Scripture, there is also the sphere of general divine revelation found in nature.

Classical theology made an acute distinction between special revelation and general revelation. The two kinds of revelations are distinguished by the terms special and general because of the differences in content-scope and in the audience of each.
I dispute this more than TULIP....
Thanks for that, I do try my best. Praise and Glory be to God Alone whose illuminating Spirit renews our minds to his truth in Scripture.
And I am not saying anything contrary to this... God is the only one that can save us, reconcile us, restore us! We do not and cannot deserve anything good from him, thus, all goodness given by God is graciously given.
I am sharing with you, that unless our wills are restored, to not only understanding the things of the Spirit God, but our affections, as well, Doug. That's why there is a huge separation, between us and God, Douggy. Sinners have hearts of stone, sinners have futile minds. Their wills are in bondage to sin, as I provide a passage where Christ says all who sin are slaves to sin. Christ uses the word Slave, not if you continue in sin you will be a slave, but all who sin, are slaves to sin. Christ is exposing our fallen condition in Adam. Even Arminius understood why sinners needed to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Because sinner were Totally Depraved, the Cross of Christ, demonstrates how far we have fallen from our original state. Law needs to be preached full tilt, not water down, if there is no terror in sinner's eyes after Law is preached, then it's not being preached correctly. But to paint a rosey picture of sinners, are not totally incapacitated by sin toward the spiritual things of God. Which is why God sent a mediator to restore this relationship that was severed, making us sworn enemies.​
Might want to check this...in case someone else reads this.​
Sorry, for the mishap, this cold weather, has affected my pain level, and I can't focus. What I meant to say is that people tend to have faith in their faith, so salvation is subjective (looking inward), and not objective (looking outside of self to Christ for everything). This is called (Extra Nos):
Extra Nos

Literally, “outside of ourselves”. The Latin term is often used in reference to the location or source of salvation as being completely external to the human being. In other words, to suggest that salvation is extra nos is to deny that salvation occurs on the basis of anything inherent in humans, whether a human act of the will or a human thought. Instead, salvation extra nos affirms that salvation is completely an act of God; that is, God freely and sovereignly bestows salvation upon a person.

Thanks for being gracious and respectful to me, you could've made fun of me or ridicule my comments here. I really do enjoy our theological discussions, and glad we can engage as gentlemen, thanks again for that.
Never said it did...faith believes in whatever has been accomplished by the cross. Faith extends its hands to receive what has been effectually done.​
I am emphasizing that Faith is passive; meaning it receives what Saves and Redeems us. So, I remember you writing that Faith is not passive, I allow me to expand a bit, if my body allows me. Luther once wrote that Faith is a busy thing, but not in Justification. After a sinner is justified through Faith Alone, it becomes active in repentance, christian living, and good works, but all of these activities of Faith is the fruits of our Justification in Christ Alone. I hope I clarified it.

To say faith is active suggests it contributes something to salvation, which is why, dear friend, becomes a little work that is the cause of Salvation. This is not biblical teaching.​

Faith does not have to be passive, and off the top of my head, I cannot recall faith/believing ever being in the passive voice biblically, or any where else.​
Anwered above.
I agree completely...​
Why do you agree? I have a request, can you be s detail as possible? I don't mind a lengthy post, because there's so much to unpack here.Thanks in advance!
Illumination, conviction, calling is not regeneration, it leads toward regeneration but is not it.​
I don't understand your thought process, here Doug. Correct me if I make a mistake in accessing your position, you are not 100% in agreement with Classical Arminianism; you don't hold to regeneration; but do or maybe hold to Prevenient Grace or some sort of view of it; you deny Total Depravity in area of Total Incapacity; you don't agree with Original Sin as in Adam's Sin & Guilt being imputed to his progeny; sinners can be saved by their personal faith that is not given through God's Grace, but natural possess it inherently; Prevenient Grace in your view doesn't save anyone, sinners need to come to saving Grace, by a decision made by them in a fallen state without being renewed by the Holy Spirit? I know this is a rapid fire, please understand me, I am trying to get your position correct.​
Again, I have repeatedly said that God is the only who can save, and anything he does for us is undeserved and is thus gracious. No matter what we do, we are never deserving of his gift. Even after salvation, we do not deserve his blessings.​
Please excuse me redundancy, like I said before Douggy, it takes time for things to soak into this rock of a brain I have. What I don't understand, maybe I am not lucid enough in clarifying what I'm after, in my questions. But if God does the saving, I don't then why you guys can't admit then that it's by Grace Alone in that he makes us alive in Christ, while we were dead; while we were enemies, and it's in this condition that he saves us.​
We need saving for reason, in that we cannot, as you said, do anything for it. But now, other question pops in my head, why can we as sinner do anything in the first, if we aren't totally incapacitated? Either sinner are totally unable to save themselves in way, or they have some kind of natural ability to offer. And if they do have something to offer, apart from Grace or possess some inherent goodness, then dear friend it's not by Grace Alone, but something owed.

I have to cut this into two parts, sorry! Part I
 
Part II
Rom 1:17For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”​
Thanks for bringing up Romans, There's so much to unpack here, I'll try my best to be concise and lucid and give this passage justice through my limited brain power. This passage is the doctrine of imputation. The crux of the Gospel that justifies the ungodly. Taken by itself, without reference to context, the expression here rendered "righteousness from God" could be translated "righteousness of God" (AV). The question then is, "What does this mean?"

Imputed Righteousness of Christ to the ungodly through Faith Alone apart from works is the crux of the Gospel message. Therefore in the Gospel the righteousness of God is reveal in his Son Jesus Christ! So, the believing sinner is declared righteous not by anything they have done or accomplished, for what could the sinner offer God in an exchange for righteousness? Righteousness is earned, through works of obedience to the Law of God. Paul expounds upon this in Romans chapters 3-4. So how can God justify the ungodly apart from personal works? What does Paul mean in Romans 4:5 that God justifies the ungodly through Faith Alone apart from works? Well, since sinners cannot stand justified before a Holy God on anything they can do or can provide to merit a verdict of righteous or justified, Paul is pointing to the Promised Seed, who would come and fulfill the law, not to abolish it. And Christ also came to condemn sin in his flesh, so that we could be freed from the curse of the Law , by becoming a curse for us (Galatians 3).

So Faith is not righteousness in itself, faith receives passively the righteousness of Christ and it is this righteousness that the ungodly are declared righteous before God, so Paul says the righteous (the justified ungodly) shall live from faith to faith, in the Promised Seed , and his works of obedience. So they are always looking extra now, outside themselves to Christ through Faith Alone!

Sorry, this cold weather is effecting my body. I'll open a thread on this point, because if anyone gets this Doctrine wrong, nothing else matters, because the church stands or falls on this doctrine.​


Faith is always active, from first to last​
If you mean Faith is alive not dead, then I agree. If you mean it's active in the justification of the ungodly, I disagree.
I am fine, and pray the grace of God will be with you as you make a stand for Christ, by whose blood we have found forgiveness and entrance into the Kingdom of the King Eternal as heirs and joint heirs with Christ; to him be honor and glory, wisdom and power for ever!


Doug​
Thanks dear friend for your kind words, I as well will pray for you and yours. Always remembering the precious Promise of God in justifying the ungodly, because he is both the just and the justifier!

Romans 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.
By Grace Alone!!!
 
Exactly Doug. Only God knows the heart.
Yep. Doug said, and I think perhaps he was mocking our position on Biblical truth saying "That you might be elect, but then again you might not be; only God knows!"

Why there is so much disdain for election I do not know. Fear perhaps. The fact remains if by grace and mercy God had not elected, no one would be saved. But He did elect by grace and mercy, to save. I just don't get the reason for sowing discord in stating it that way.

First off, that is not the Good News that we preach per se. At least not post-conversion.

We should and do preach election because it is Biblical, and preach it to those who are saved. Paul illustrates this milk of the word in 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. He also reiterates this to believers often in Scripture. It is in the opening of Titus, throughout Romans, in Ephesians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 2 Timothy &c.

What Doug says is true, though he obviously stated it in a tone of ridicule. Paul demonstrates the fact of not (always) knowing who the elect are on his part in 2 Timothy 2:8-10, but nonetheless seeking them out via preaching the Gospel;

8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel,

9 for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound!

10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."
 
Really? What is the other option? You are either in Adam or in Christ.
Wow, lol, how much truth do these guys reject? He used the phrase "from Adam," but the Biblical terminology is "in Adam" or "in Christ." These are the only two states of man in the world, one is "in" one or the other. Romans 5 of course deals with this truth.

For a hard truth, all those whom Christ died for; Ephesians 2:5ff, applying exclusively to them all the things detailed in the text (seating them with Him &c) are the ones whom He had chosen to be in Him; Ephesians 1:4 &c. The glorious truth is that every one of them will be saved; John 6:44.

I suppose now someone has extra-biblical revelation and is preaching another sub-category? To what purpose, and under what objective? That's the question, and the answer would reveal the intention of such teaching. Part of it is already obvious; it is a teaching set against Biblical revelation.
 
Yep. Doug said, and I think perhaps he was mocking our position on Biblical truth saying "That you might be elect, but then again you might not be; only God knows!"

Why there is so much disdain for election I do not know. Fear perhaps. The fact remains if by grace and mercy God had not elected, no one would be saved. But He did elect by grace and mercy, to save. I just don't get the reason for sowing discord in stating it that way.

First off, that is not the Good News that we preach per se. At least not post-conversion.

We should and do preach election because it is Biblical, and preach it to those who are saved. Paul illustrates this milk of the word in 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. He also reiterates this to believers often in Scripture. It is in the opening of Titus, throughout Romans, in Ephesians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 2 Timothy &c.

What Doug says is true, though he obviously stated it in a tone of ridicule. Paul demonstrates the fact of not (always) knowing who the elect are on his part in 2 Timothy 2:8-10, but nonetheless seeking them out via preaching the Gospel;

8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel,

9 for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound!

10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."
Yes, he was being a wise guy. He likes to betray himself above the fray.
 
They say it's not Gospel saving Grace, though. So, I don't why natural revelation is brought in
Because to them it gets God off the hook. It is like this; there is great disdain for the Sovereignty of God in salvation, and particularly in the exercise of His justice. The exercise of His mercy is also under His Sovereign decree. Seemingly men fret over the former rather than glorying in the latter.

I'll say this; God is glorified in both aspects. His glorious attributes are on display, His attributes of Divine Mercy and Grace, and of reserving the right of the exercising Justice. Men don't think God has the right to do the latter, it troubles their minds, they think He only has reason to do the latter. They think it is only right to do the former if a man does some heinous sin of rejection, not realizing all men, every man, could be justly damned at any moment without rejecting a thing since man is lost (fit for destruction) prior to any act of rejecting. Man doesn't become lost after rejecting, they are all lost prior to this.

God can act upon any of these attributes at Will and at any point, even justly damning a person without offering them a chance for eternal life.

It is the age-old Romans 9:19-21 replying against God, calling Him unfair (which is technically saying He is "unjust.") So, if one can say, to soothe their conscience, that natural revelation is enough then they can overlook these facts while acting as if through nature all were offered eternal life if they "decide," or something.

It is truth that God elects some (by grace and mercy) and damns others (by exercising justice.) It is a hard truth. We don't have all the answers as to why, but I trust the One that does.
 
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