What is Compatibilism?

brightfame52

Well-known member
Does God have Free Will? Yes ; of course!!

But can God act (make a choice) contrary to His nature?
No; of course not


in the same way:
A man can make free will choices as long as those choices are not contrary to his nature.
Change a man's nature: and he will make different free will choices.

agreed?
That is true, thats why man cannot make spiritual choices towards God and Salvation. He cannot choose by his will to believe in Christ Jn 6 44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

And at no time is any man free from Gods absolute Sovereign control Prov 16 9

A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

Jer 10 23

O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps

The word direct here kuwn means:

to be fixed, be securely determined

to arrange, order

The NLT


We can make our plans,
but the LORD determines our steps.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Then why have you not pointed it out

As you were asked

Then point where that leaves man with any input:

where man can do anything not determined by God

Sorry compatibilism is determinism just as much as hard determinism
Man does not have your kind of freedom! If he did it would directly contradict these verses and render them meaningless...

Any verse that you interpret to mean man has ultimate control of any outcome is not compatible with these verses...


Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will stand. - Proverbs 19:21

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, - Ephesians 1:11

The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps. - Proverbs 16:9

all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to hiswill among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?" - Daniel 4:35

"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. - Job 42:2

9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' - Isaiah 46:9-10

The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. - Proverbs 16:4

The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever hewill. - Proverbs 21:1

Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? - Lamentations 3:37

So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. - Romans 9:18

I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things. - Isaiah 45:7

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. - Proverbs 16:33

and said, "O LORD, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand you. - 2 Chronicles 20:6
 
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TomFL

Guest
Man does not have your kind of freedom! If he did it would directly contradict these verses and render them meaningless...

So when I stated

Then point where that leaves man with any input

where man can do anything not determined by God

Sorry compatibilism is determinism just as much as hard determinism

I was correct and man does not have any input
 

Sketo

Well-known member
So when I stated

Then point where that leaves man with any input

where man can do anything not determined by God

Sorry compatibilism is determinism just as much as hard determinism

I was correct and man does not have any input
Your question is loaded with a strawman and I will not fall for it!

You want me to answer in a way that makes it where man is in ultimate control of weather Jesus was crucified instead of God!
You assume that Jesus crucified has the potential of never happening, due to mans “potential input”, and this is against the Bible!

So again...

Man does not have your kind of freedom! If he did it would directly contradict these verses and render them meaningless...

Any verse that you interpret to mean man has ultimate control of any outcome is not compatible with these verses...


Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will stand. - Proverbs 19:21

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, - Ephesians 1:11

The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps. - Proverbs 16:9

all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to hiswill among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?" - Daniel 4:35

"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. - Job 42:2

9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' - Isaiah 46:9-10

The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. - Proverbs 16:4

The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever hewill. - Proverbs 21:1

Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? - Lamentations 3:37

So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. - Romans 9:18

I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things. - Isaiah 45:7

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. - Proverbs 16:33

and said, "O LORD, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand you. - 2 Chronicles 20:6
 
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TomFL

Guest
Your question is loaded with a strawman and I will not fall for it!

You want me to answer in a way that makes it where man is in ultimate control of weather Jesus was crucified instead of God!
You assume that Jesus crucified has the potential of never happening, due to mans “potential input”, and this is against the Bible!

I never mentioned crucifixion

Why you do is a mystery

I stated

So when I stated

Then point where that leaves man with any input

where man can do anything not determined by God

Sorry compatibilism is determinism just as much as hard determinism

and you replied

Man does not have your kind of freedom! If he did it would directly contradict these verses and render them meaningless...

Any verse that you interpret to mean man has ultimate control of any outcome is not compatible with these verses...

I was correct and man does not have any input in Calvinist determinism

and I stated nothing at all about man having ultimate control

there was no strawman and you confirmed my point

Determinism leaves man without any input
 

Sketo

Well-known member
I never mentioned crucifixion

Why you do is a mystery
I will post it again for your convenience...
For example, God is said to specifically ordain the crucifixion of His Son, and yet evil men voluntarily crucify Him (see Acts 2:23 & 4:27-28). This voluntary of evil act is not free from God's decree, but it is voluntary, according to these Texts. Or when Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery in Egypt, Joseph later recounted that what his brothers intended for evil, God intended for good (Gen 50:20). God determines and ordains that these events will take place (that Joseph will be sold into slavery), yet the brothers voluntarily make the evil choice that beings it to pass, which means the sin is imputed to Joseph's brothers for the wicked act, and God remains blameless. In both of these cases, it could be said that God ordains sin, sinlessly. Nothing occurs apart from His sovereign good pleasure.


So when I stated

Then point where that leaves man with any input

where man can do anything not determined by God
Your question is loaded with a strawman and I will not fall for it!

You want me to answer in a way that makes it where man is in ultimate control of weather Jesus was crucified instead of God!
You assume that Jesus crucified has the potential of never happening, due to mans “potential input”, and this is against the Bible!

So again...
Man does not have your kind of freedom! If he did it would directly contradict these verses and render them meaningless...

Any verse that you interpret to mean man has ultimate control of any outcome is not compatible with these verses...

Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will stand. - Proverbs 19:21

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, - Ephesians 1:11

The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps. - Proverbs 16:9

all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to hiswill among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?" - Daniel 4:35

"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. - Job 42:2

9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' - Isaiah 46:9-10

The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. - Proverbs 16:4

The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever hewill. - Proverbs 21:1

Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? - Lamentations 3:37

So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. - Romans 9:18

I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things. - Isaiah 45:7

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. - Proverbs 16:33

and said, "O LORD, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand you. - 2 Chronicles 20:6


Sorry compatibilism is determinism just as much as hard determinism
Compatibilism is a form of determinism and it should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism. It simply means that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. Our choices are not coerced ...i.e. we do not choose against what we want or desire, yet we never make choices contrary to God's sovereign decree. What God determines will always come to pass (Eph 1:11)...
I was correct and man does not have any input in Calvinist determinism
This is your blind, willing ignorant, assumption!
The verses above stand as evidence against your strawman!
and I stated nothing at all about man having ultimate control
Is there any possibility that mans “input” could have determined the outcome of the crucifixion to be different than Gods determined outcome?
Determinism leaves man without any input
Determinism leaves man without any input that can thwart Gods determined outcome in any situation!

Man does not have any control over God!
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
sketo

I will post it again for your convenience...
For example, God is said to specifically ordain the crucifixion of His Son, and yet evil men voluntarily crucify Him (see Acts 2:23 & 4:27-28). This voluntary of evil act is not free from God's decree, but it is voluntary, according to these Texts. Or when Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery in Egypt, Joseph later recounted that what his brothers intended for evil, God intended for good (Gen 50:20). God determines and ordains that these events will take place (that Joseph will be sold into slavery), yet the brothers voluntarily make the evil choice that beings it to pass, which means the sin is imputed to Joseph's brothers for the wicked act, and God remains blameless. In both of these cases, it could be said that God ordains sin, sinlessly. Nothing occurs apart from His sovereign good pleasure.

Very good summary ! And supported with scripture.
 
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TomFL

Guest
sketo

I will post it again for your convenience...
For example, God is said to specifically ordain the crucifixion of His Son, and yet evil men voluntarily crucify Him (see Acts 2:23 & 4:27-28). This voluntary of evil act is not free from God's decree, but it is voluntary, according to these Texts. Or when Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery in Egypt, Joseph later recounted that what his brothers intended for evil, God intended for good (Gen 50:20). God determines and ordains that these events will take place (that Joseph will be sold into slavery), yet the brothers voluntarily make the evil choice that beings it to pass, which means the sin is imputed to Joseph's brothers for the wicked act, and God remains blameless. In both of these cases, it could be said that God ordains sin, sinlessly. Nothing occurs apart from His sovereign good pleasure.

Very good summary ! And supported with scripture.
The problems are manyfold

First God used foreknowledge and Calvinist determinism denies foreknowledge in God decree

Acts 2:23 (KJV 1900)
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Second the bible nowhere states God gave the Israelites the desire to kill Christ

that would actually be contrary to the bible. 1john 2:16 and others

third

You cannot use one supposed example and claim it is true in all cases

that is just assumption

Fourth

it is illogical to assume God determines the sin he must then determine to redeem
 

Sketo

Well-known member
First God used foreknowledge and Calvinist determinism denies foreknowledge in God decree

Acts 2:23 (KJV 1900)
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
God knows the future, because he performs the future. He is never surprised, because he is not surprised at his own work.

Foreknowledge is not an awareness of what the fates will make happen. Foreknowledge is not an awareness of what random chance is going to bring about.
Foreknowledge is not an awareness of what ultimate human autonomy is going to produce. There is no fate. There is no random chance. There is no ultimate human autonomy.

What God knows is what God will do.
The future is not some kind of freewheeling reality separate from God’s will that he is trying to catch on to and adapt to.
He knows the future because he plans the future, and he is never surprised by what he plans.

You assume that Jesus crucified has the potential of never happening, due to mans “potential input”, and this is against the Bible!

So again...
Man does not have your kind of freedom! If he did it would directly contradict these verses and render them meaningless...

Any verse that you interpret to mean man has ultimate control of any outcome is not compatible with these verses...

Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will stand. - Proverbs 19:21

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, - Ephesians 1:11

The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps. - Proverbs 16:9

all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to hiswill among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?" - Daniel 4:35

"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. - Job 42:2

9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' - Isaiah 46:9-10

The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. - Proverbs 16:4

The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever hewill. - Proverbs 21:1

Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? - Lamentations 3:37

So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. - Romans 9:18

I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things. - Isaiah 45:7

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. - Proverbs 16:33

and said, "O LORD, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand you. - 2 Chronicles 20:6

Second the bible nowhere states God gave the Israelites the desire to kill Christ
God did not have to give them the desire! They are not “neutral”!
that would actually be contrary to the bible. 1john 2:16 and others
I agree!
You cannot use one supposed example and claim it is true in all cases
If there is NO example to prove the contrary then it can be inferred!
Plus all the verses I posted above affirm!
it is illogical to assume God determines the sin he must then determine to redeem
that is just assumption
 
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TomFL

Guest
God knows the future, because he performs the future. He is never surprised, because he is not surprised at his own work.

That is not the point Calvinist doctrine asserts God did not take into account foreknowledge when he made his decree.
He knows the future because he plans the future, and he is never surprised by what he plans.

You assume that Jesus crucified has the potential of never happening, due to mans “potential input”, and this is against the Bible!

You really do need to stop claiming what I would assume

You are in error

I believe God knows what will happen in all possible circumstances

He has infallible middle knowledge

Second the bible nowhere states God gave the Israelites the desire to kill Christ

God did not have to give them the desire! They are not “neutral”!

Tom stated
So what not being neutral does not guarantee they would kill Christ

besides it would be unbiblical 1Jn 2:16 to assume God gave them that desire




If you agree then you have just rejected the idea that God meticulously determines all things

TomFL said:
You cannot use one supposed example and claim it is true in all cases

If there is NO example to prove the contrary then it can be inferred!
Plus all the verses I posted above affirm!


No an inference is just an inference

However you have just affirmed the opposite above

destroying any claim to divine meticulous determination of all things
 
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TomFL

Guest
So again...
Man does not have your kind of freedom! If he did it would directly contradict these verses and render them meaningless...
You do not understand the kind of freedom I believe he has

as you confound a soft (limited) libertarian free will with a hard LFW

Ultimate responsibility (UR) Ultimate responsibility indicates the ultimate origin of decisions.

Agent causation (AC) A person is the source and origin of his choices.

The principle of alternative possibilities (AP) At crucial times, the ability to choose or refrain from choosing is genuinely available.

The reality of will-setting moments A person does not always have the ability to choose to the contrary. Certain free choices result in the loss of freedom.

The distinction between freedom of responsibility and freedom of integrity The Bible presents freedom as a permission (the freedom of responsibility) and as a power (the freedom of integrity).

Soft libertarianism, or concurrence, holds that a moral agent has the power to choose in a libertarian sense, but the limits of this ability are decided by his character. While a determinist argues a person’s choice is determined by his character, soft libertarianism contends a person’s character simply determines what sets of choices are available. Outside influences and internal dispositions are factors, but the agent has the ability to take any one of the choices within the set. Possessing libertarian freedom means we genuinely choose, but we dwell in a fallen world so it is not an easy, even, unslanted choice. And we are finite creatures, so the range of choices is limited.
From Kenneth Keathley - Salvation and Sovereignty

It says nothing at all about man being able to thwart the sovereignty of God

You lack understanding of what you criticize




Any verse that you interpret to mean man has ultimate control of any outcome is not compatible with these verses...

See what I mean

Where has it been stated man has ultimate control over God


Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will stand. - Proverbs 19:21

Yes that shows God is sovereign but it says nothing at all about meticulous determination of all things

You have to read that into the text

The meaning of sovereignty is not meticulous determination



In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, - Ephesians 1:11

Context shows that is dealing with the faithful in Christ

God determined that the faithful in Christ would stand before him holy and blameless

Nothing there about meticulous determination of all things either



The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps. - Proverbs 16:9

Yes God is sovereign and man makes his plan but God's is the final decision

But where does that says God meticulously determined all thing

In fact you agreed he does not determine all of man's sinful desires



all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to hiswill among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?" - Daniel 4:35

Of course but once again God is sovereign but where does it state he meticulously determines all things




"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. - Job 42:2

As above

It seems you confound sovereignty with divine meticulous determination of all things


9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' - Isaiah 46:9-10

Same as all the others


The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. - Proverbs 16:4

Yes he can use the wicked. It does not say he made them wicked


The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever hewill. - Proverbs 21:1

Is that more than the king stating his heart is to follow the Lord's will

BTW Did God lead King Solomon to involvement with
foreign women who then led him into idolatry


Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? - Lamentations 3:37

Again no meticulous divine determination of all things


So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. - Romans 9:18

Taken out of context

In context it has refence to God using an already hardened Israel for the ignoble purpose of crucifying the Christ

The verses teach God's sovereignty but they do not teach divine meticulous determination of all things

and we already have your affirmation he does not
 

zerinus

Well-known member

Compatibilism is the belief that God's predetermination is "compatible" with voluntary choice. In light of Scripture, human choices are believed to be exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices that occur through divine determinism (see Acts 2:23 & 4:27-28).

I came a bit late to this thread, and I haven't read all the replies, but here is my reply. I am sure you have defined compatibilism well, but whether the underlying theology behind it is biblical or not is not established. The verses you have quoted do not support the claim.

Acts 2:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 4:

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.


That presupposes that just because the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ had been foreordained and predetermined beforehand, that every evil desire and intent of those who carried it out must also have been predetermined, which does not logically follow. As one clever poster on a chat line once said, If I jumped into a pit of snakes with the intention of getting killed, and knowing full well that I would be killed, and end up getting killed, it does not follow I had predisposed all the evil desires of the snakes to kill me as well.

Our choices are also determined by our greatest inclinations. Compatibilism affirms that we make choices for a reason, that the will is not independent of the person and we will always choose what we want (Deut 30:16,17,19; Matt 17:12; James 1:14).

That is another fallacy of compatibilism. Our moral choices are not determined by our "greatest desires," but by our ability to exercise moral judgement to assess the rights and wrongs of a given situation, and of the choices lying before us, and to make our decisions accordingly. The scriptures you have referenced again do not support your claim.

Deuteronomy 30:

16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Deuteronomy 30:

17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

Deuteronomy 30:

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Matthew 17:

12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

James 1:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.


How do these verses support your claim? Not even remotely.

It means God has granted us the ability to act freely (that is, voluntarily without coercion), but not independent from God nor free from our desires, but to act according to our desires and nature. In other words, voluntary choice (to chose to act as we please) is compatible with determinism. The Scripture itself testifies that

Scripture does nothing of the kind. That turns God into a hypocrite, which the Bible tells us he is not. The Bible tells us that God is holy, and wants us to be holy like him. He is not a duplicitous, dishonest, hypocrite.
“…no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. (Luke 6:42-45)
"Good trees" in biblical terms become "good" by their own choices and actions, and the same applies "bad" trees. If they choose to bring forth Good fruit, they become identified as good trees, and the same applies to those who become identified as bad trees. Jesus said:

Matthew 5:

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


He did not say, "If you are already made of the right stuff, that is what will happen to you whether you like it or not!"

Figtrees, of necessity, grow figs, not thorns. According to Jesus, then, nature produces a necessary result or fruit at the exclusion of something else. One cannot produce a result that is contrary to nature. While libertarians uphold the philosophy that “choice without sufficient cause” is what makes one responsible, the compatibilist, on the other hand, looks to Scripture which testifies that it is because our choices have motives and desires that moral responsibility is actually established. Responsibility requires that our acts, of necessity, be intentional!

by John W. Hendryx
Not true. According to Jesus' theology, figtrees become figtrees by their own choices, an thorn bushes become thorn bushes by their own choices. They have the choice to bring forth figs or thorns, and they become identified that way.
 
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