What is "freewill"?

[Lion IRC]

Logically, if a choice is foreknown for certain, one cannot choose otherwise, your free will is a illusion.

No. It's not a logically compulsory inference that just because I know something about your future that you don't,
...then therefore your freewill is nullified.

In 1885 you and Marty McFly both have free will.

Marty travels forward in time and learns that you freely chose to marry the local school teacher.

You don't know that he now knows this fact.

You remained in the 1885 old west. You haven't even met the school teacher yet. Your free will choice to marry or not marry isn't compelled by Marty's time travel insights.

 

[Lion IRC]

Free will.

It's pretty simple. Properly basic.

Just two words. "Free" "Will"

Which part of free don't you understand?
Which part of will don't you understand? (Volition)

If we're going to suppose that free will is an illusion, then you might as well go the whole hog and believe that existence itself is imaginary as well.

A mirage. You don't really exist. Nothing really exists.

Good luck persuading me that God is real if you can't cope with the basics of existence and free will.

 

[Kampioen]

Your skipping ahead. You do agree then God is omniscient and all choices are foreknown?

Yes. So where is the skipping ahead?

 

[Reformedguy]

No. It's not a logically compulsory inference that just because I know something about your future that you don't,
...then therefore your freewill is nullified.

In 1885 you and Marty McFly both have free will.

Marty travels forward in time and learns that you freely chose to marry the local school teacher.

You don't know that he now knows this fact.

You remained in the 1885 old west. You haven't even met the school teacher yet. Your free will choice to marry or not marry isn't compelled by Marty's time travel insights.

If your choice is known for certain then you cannot choose otherwise. You may contemplate buying the red or blue car for weeks but your choice has been known for all eternity and you will not choose other than how God knows your going to choose.

And you simply presuppose free will. Define free will. Free from what to do what?

 

[preacher4truth]

Scripture doesn't deny it.

? ?

That's a ridiculous stance! We go to Scripture for truth, we don't develop hypotheses and declare ourselves correct simply because we don't see a verse, or because we don't think Scripture speaks against it. If that's your yardstick in declaring what is true then it is purely subjective. Your statement is an attempt to say it is objective. Gues what, you're not God and you don't get to declare what is true. Your magic free willy fairy dust has clouded your vision.

Nevertheless, in that case, many of you, when actually shown truth, Scripture, exegesis, deny it when it doesn't fit into your criteria anyhow, even when it's right there, clear, plain, and concise.

Now I see where the problem is, 2 Timothy 4, myths and fables are all the rage. Wow.

 

[preacher4truth]

Yes, because you missed it the first time.

I'm amazed the cut and paste king called you on repeating something. Um... ? ?

The will that fails:
........ 24 For I tell you that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

You said this clearly indicates they were able to will it....

Good point...

 

[Kampioen]

Nevertheless, in that case, many of you, when actually shown truth, Scripture, exegesis, deny it when it doesn't fit into your criteria anyhow, even when it's right there, clear, plain, and concise.

And where is the clear, plain and concise Scripture that disproves God foreknows an open future?

 

[preacher4truth]

And where is the clear, plain and concise Scripture that disproves God foreknows an open future?

So now you resort to games, and move the goalposts? Why not deal with all I stated in its context, and admit you set yourself up to make subjective criteria truth? You are one confused individual, and no offense intended, but you try really hard to appear smart. Try sticking to Scripture, not free willy-isms.

 

[Kampioen]

So now you resort to games, and move the goalposts? Why not deal with all I stated in its context, and admit you set yourself up to make subjective criteria truth? You are one confused individual, and no offense intended, but you try really hard to appear smart. Try sticking to Scripture, not free willy-isms.

A foreknown open future is a conclusion that explains the Scriptures, like the Trinity, where we already now have on mind what we're debating. And like the Trinity it can't be Scripturally proven wrong, or at least that's the debate.

 

[Arikel88]

Hebrew law or mosaic law reminds people to obey but G-d has taken prophets to save and do the will of G-d in wars, missions, and choosing good and evil. They break the law in disobeying G-d, prophets like Jeremiah who chose G-d disobey tradition and his father and told Israel their errors and love for the temple forgotten the temple inside they are made of. Kick Jeremiah out of their circle rejected from society he continued, we have Elijah who many don’t talk about but he change the words of G-d and sentence Jezabel but G-d only wanted to punish Jezabel but Elijah added her family as punishment. G-d was angry at Elijah but forgave him. Still G-d’s plan was only Jezabel but he made an exception for Elijah and freewill existed and changed yes G-d allows it.


People can change their course in life but what is the promblem from today. Is how the Greek way of thinking of liberalism was popular in the time of Jesus.


James 2:12 “So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.”


2 Corinthians 3:17 “Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.”


And Greeks influence the time of jesus that people like Luke wrote his book in the bible and later Catholic church not knowing fully Hebrew culture copied things from greeks and influence the bible. Remember they were not G-d’s people but A country that stoled and wrote their intrepretation of G-d and took Jesus as an emblema that is not real.


Greek theology is freedom and rationalist thought, Hebrew people is Law and Relation with the one G-d. Greeks have influence the modernworld and gives them right, the western world copies Greek and Roman culture and their diffinity in their laws have given the modern topic freewill. So freewill clashes with freewill in the old times. That is why everything has to do with predestination, Calvanism go ahead and read see all our versions of choosing good and evil have consequences but still you decide your future.


There are 2 fields :indeterminism and determinism explain modern freewill and both give notion of control. Indeterminism means free acts are not determine in other words what you do with works does not foretold your future and the path you have chosen. Determinism says everything you do has already decided your future and you have no career. Nothing can change your destiny but G-d can.


Matthew 12:37 “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”


God’s general sovereignty- says god is in charge of everything but doesn’t control everything
God’s specific sovereignty- says that He not only has ordained everything, but He also controls everything.


Proverbs 16:9 “The mind of the man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.


Proverbs 3:5-6“Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.”

 

[Lion IRC]

If your choice is known for certain then you cannot choose otherwise. You may contemplate buying the red or blue car for weeks but your choice has been known for all eternity and you will not choose other than how God knows your going to choose.

And you simply presuppose free will. Define free will. Free from what to do what?

You haven't addressed my Marty McFly point that a person can simultaneously;

a) have autonomous free will
b) and yet remain totally ignorant of the fact someone else has travelled forward in time and learned the choice which the person hasn't made yet.

This scenario breaks the artificial nexus between free will and foreknowledge.

Here's another example.

Someone is observing a bank robber on CCTV. They watch the robber casing the bank. They watch the robber putting on a balaclava mask disguise. They see him draw his gun and enter the bank. They watch him walking up to the bank teller.

Now. Can the bank robber claim he was deprived of free will by reason of the fact that someone observing him on CCTV knew exactly what was about to take place?

Can the bank robber rely on your (flawed) logic that if anyone else knows what event is about to happen, that event must therefore have been inevitable from before the dawn of time?

Bank Robber : "I'm innocent. God made me do it. I'm not a robber, I'm a robot with no free will"

 

[Reformedguy]

You haven't addressed my Marty McFly point that a person can simultaneously;

a) have autonomous free will
b) and yet remain totally ignorant of the fact someone else has travelled forward in time and learned the choice which the person hasn't made yet.

This scenario breaks the artificial nexus between free will and foreknowledge.

Here's another example.

Someone is observing a bank robber on CCTV. They watch the robber casing the bank. They watch the robber putting on a balaclava mask disguise. They see him draw his gun and enter the bank. They watch him walking up to the bank teller.

Now. Can the bank robber claim he was deprived of free will by reason of the fact that someone observing him on CCTV knew exactly what was about to take place?

Can the bank robber rely on your (flawed) logic that if anyone else knows what event is about to happen, that event must therefore have been inevitable from before the dawn of time?

Bank Robber : "I'm innocent. God made me do it. I'm not a robber, I'm a robot with no free will"

a) You have not shown you have autonomous free will. Prove your premise

b) Thanks for making my point. Your free will is simply a illusion whether your aware of it or not.

You can stop with the analogies, I do not even read them.

 

[Lion IRC]

Your contention is that one person cant have free will if another person somehow finds out what they are going to do.

It's you who haven't proven your premiss.

Moreover, you've (amazingly) boasted that you havent even read my example analogies which disprove your logically incoherent claim. That's bad faith dialogue. And frankly a little rude if you don't mind me saying.

Here's another example which disproves your belief. Read or don't read. Suit yourself. Your ignorance is entirely voluntary. <-----[see what I did there?]

Suppose I write a note in my top secret, private calendar diary stating that on a given date I am going to go on a picnic to a certain park.

A stranger, unbeknownst to me, finds my private diary and reads the entry. They then go to the park and meet me there.

"Hello Lion IRC," they say. "I've wanted to meet you for a while so I've come to this very same park, on this very same day as you."

I'm atonished ?
This is a miracle beyond belief !!!
Surely my free will must have been hijacked. That person must have used some Jedi mind trick to hypnotize me into going to that park on that day. I thought it was my autonomous free will CHOICE to go there on that day. But it's clear to me now that the stranger who met me in the park controls my destiny.

 

[Reformedguy]

Your contention is that one person cant have free will if another person somehow finds out what they are going to do.

It's you who haven't proven your premiss.

Moreover, you've (amazingly) boasted that you havent even read my example analogies which disprove your logically incoherent claim. That's bad faith dialogue. And frankly a little rude if you don't mind me saying.

Here's another example which disproves your belief. Read or don't read. Suit yourself. Your ignorance is entirely voluntary.

Suppose I write a note in my top secret, private calendar diary stating that on a given date I am going to go on a picnic to a certain park.

A stranger, unbeknownst to me, finds my private diary and reads the entry. They then go to the park and meet me there.

"Hello Lion IRC," they say. "I've wanted to meet you for a while so I've come to this very same park, on this very same day as you."

I'm atonished ?
This is a miracle beyond belief !!!
Surely my free will must have been hijacked. That person must have used some Jedi mind trick to hypnotize me into going to that park on that day. I thought it was my autonomous free will CHOICE to go there on that day. But it's clear to me now that the stranger who met me in the park controls my destiny.

That's not my contention. God is omniscient. Knows the end from the beginning. Every choice you have made has been known from all eternity. Your future choices are certain.

My premise is based upon logic and reason with a simple question. Can you choose other than how God knows your going to choose? Of course not. If you cannot choose otherwise then how is your will free? Free to do what exactly?

I do not do analogies. Analogies are flawed. Analgesis is not the proper way to rightly divide the word of God. You can keep posting them of course. Most probably do read them.

 

[Lion IRC]

There's a famous fallacy called the gamblers fallacy which is akin to the mistaken belief that God's knowledge of what will happen equals God's intent.

The Gambler thinks there's something mystical about the predictive likelihood of their lottery numbers coming up next week based on the fact that those numbers haven't come up last week or the week before.

 

[Lion IRC]

Analgesis is not the proper way to rightly divide the word of God

I haven't used 'analgesis' to discern scripture. I've used analogies to logically demonstrate a similarity.

Analogy : From Latin analogia, from Ancient Greek ἀναλογία (analogía), from ἀνά (aná) + λόγος (lógos, “speech, reckoning”)

FYI - The bible is full of analogies. (And metaphors, similies, parables, examples, similitudes...)

But since you prefer your exegesis in the form of dueling verses....

Deuteronomy 30:19 says "choose life".
God is not the author of confusion. He does not trick us into thinking we can choose if we lack the free will ability to choose.

 

[Reformedguy]

I haven't used 'analgesis' to discern scripture. I've used analogies to logically demonstrate a similarity.

Analogy : From Latin analogia, from Ancient Greek ἀναλογία (analogía), from ἀνά (aná) + λόγος (lógos, “speech, reckoning”)

FYI - The bible is full of analogies. (And metaphors, similies, parables, examples, similitudes...)

But since you prefer your exegesis in the form of dueling verses....

Deuteronomy 30:19 says "choose life".
God is not the author of confusion. He does not trick us into thinking we can choose if we lack the free will ability to choose.

So He says "choose life", so what. Does He know who will and will not choose life?

 

[Lion IRC]

Does He know who will and will not choose life?

Sure. Who says otherwise?

Folks who argue for free will aren't asserting God lacks the omnipotent ability to know what they will freely choose.

Free will doesn't threaten God's power in the slightest. Neither does someone knowing which park I will be visiting next week mean that THEY decided which park I will visit.

You haven't demonstrated the compulsory, coercive logic that supports your claim conflating foreknowledge with involuntary predestination.

 

[Lion IRC]

You've merely asserted by special pleading that we aren't aware that we lack autonomous free will.

It's special pleading because if I said you aren't aware that you actually DO have free will, you wouldnt grant me the same exemption to simply plead my case without reasoning.

You have free will. You just don't know it.
You lack free will. You just don't know it.

This isnt intellectual discourse.
This is on par with;

...secretly you know I'm right but you won't admit it.
...if you were smart enough you would see I'm right.

 

[Lion IRC]

Like I said...

If we're going to suppose that free will is an illusion, then you might as well go the whole hog and believe that existence itself is imaginary as well.

A mirage. You don't really exist. Nothing really exists.

Good luck persuading me that God is real if you can't cope with the basics of existence and free will.

Claiming that we only think we have free will is like saying to someone...
...you aren't really in pain, it's all just in your mind.
It's not real pain, it's an illusion of pain.