What is "freewill"?

[Arikel88]

Freewill existed even I dislike to say it but the devil had freewill and before our creation that is why we choose to do good and not evil remember the devil understood when angels cannot and he started an uprise against the father. The word freewill did not exist in the bible there is no word in hebrew with that meaning but choosing good and evil to make decision to know we do ahve choices and not to make the abd one’s the devil made.
Remember you all power to choose and what you decide in your life is giving to you, life is short for some make the right decisions in life. Put G-d first in life and you will bear fruits in life that keep your life those are the important one’s.
Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Proverbs 21:2
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes,
But the LORD weighs the hearts.
Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Proverbs 3:5-6
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

 

[Kampioen]

My premise is based upon logic and reason with a simple question.

Can you choose other than how God knows your going to choose? Of course not.

If you cannot choose otherwise then how is your will free? Free to do what exactly?

Can we choose other than how God knows we are going to choose? ... No. ...

Because God's foreknowledge is not an after the fact knowledge but like a miraculous prediction that awaits our open choice. ...

God's predictive foreknowledge is thuswise eternally immersivley known.

The future hasn't happened yet because God created only the progressive present. The past is a memory and the future is open because it hasn't been created yet.

Free to do what? Free to libertarianly choose what is set before us, like God could have libertarianly decided not to create the universe.

That is the conclusion that reconciles Scriptures.

 

[GeneZ]

I believe that "free will" only exists in God and salvation is a sovereign act of God, that starts in Him and ends in the believer believing according to His Will, making His Will ours too.

We can have "freed will." Only by control of our flesh via the Holy Spirit.

When the flesh is being suppressed (by grace) our soul can think without the oppressive effects of the flesh.

That is why we can not be saved without grace.

 

[kamaeq]

I will say it again. Logically, if a choice is foreknown for certain, one cannot choose otherwise, your free will is a illusion.

Aaaand you are missing the point.

I have been around enough small children that I can at times predict their choices with certainty By your statement, their choice is foreknown, by me.

The child comes to the decision point, it cannot choose otherwise (for various reasons) but will choose as I predicted. Is the child's free will an illusion? Does that fact that I know take away the choice that small child makes? Or does it just mean that I'm really a lot wiser and knowledgeable than the child?

Since, being omniscient, God knows all of His choices, do you claim God's free will is also an illusion?

Does God's knowledge directly influence the choice, or is it simply that He knows and lets us freely choose?

After all, if we are living in the world of illusion you claim with us being nothing more than mindless automatons for the amusement (?) or experimentation (?) of some "higher being", then why bother with anything?

 

[fltom]

Aaaand you are missing the point.

I have been around enough small children that I can at times predict their choices with certainty By your statement, their choice is foreknown, by me.

The child comes to the decision point, it cannot choose otherwise (for various reasons) but will choose as I predicted. Is the child's free will an illusion? Does that fact that I know take away the choice that small child makes? Or does it just mean that I'm really a lot wiser and knowledgeable than the child?

Since, being omniscient, God knows all of His choices, do you claim God's free will is also an illusion?

Does God's knowledge directly influence the choice, or is it simply that He knows and lets us freely choose?

After all, if we are living in the world of illusion you claim with us being nothing more than mindless automatons for the amusement (?) or experimentation (?) of some "higher being", then why bother with anything?

Reformedguy confounds foreknowledge and determination

 

[Beloved Daughter]

Your contention is that one person cant have free will if another person somehow finds out what they are going to do.

It's you who haven't proven your premiss.

Moreover, you've (amazingly) boasted that you havent even read my example analogies which disprove your logically incoherent claim. That's bad faith dialogue. And frankly a little rude if you don't mind me saying.

Here's another example which disproves your belief. Read or don't read. Suit yourself. Your ignorance is entirely voluntary. <-----[see what I did there?]

Suppose I write a note in my top secret, private calendar diary stating that on a given date I am going to go on a picnic to a certain park.

A stranger, unbeknownst to me, finds my private diary and reads the entry. They then go to the park and meet me there.

"Hello Lion IRC," they say. "I've wanted to meet you for a while so I've come to this very same park, on this very same day as you."

I'm atonished 😲
This is a miracle beyond belief !!!
Surely my free will must have been hijacked. That person must have used some Jedi mind trick to hypnotize me into going to that park on that day. I thought it was my autonomous free will CHOICE to go there on that day. But it's clear to me now that the stranger who met me in the park controls my destiny.

Nonsense.

The scriptures say otherwise.

 

[Beloved Daughter]

Like I said...



Claiming that we only think we have free will is like saying to someone...
...you aren't really in pain, it's all just in your mind.
It's not real pain, it's an illusion of pain.

More nonsense.

The Bible knows nothing of free will. Zero, zilch. There is a verse in OT that seems to contradict, but of course, the context is giving to others and what people should give, BUT they can give more. It's not about free will unto salvation at all.

Salvation is completely of God.

 

[Beloved Daughter]

Reformedguy confounds foreknowledge and determination

No, he doesn't. You just don't like it.

 

[Beloved Daughter]

Can we choose other than how God knows we are going to choose? ... No. ...

Because God's foreknowledge is not an after the fact knowledge but like a miraculous prediction that awaits our open choice. ...

God's predictive foreknowledge is thuswise eternally immersivley known.

The future hasn't happened yet because God created only the progressive present. The past is a memory and the future is open because it hasn't been created yet.

Free to do what? Free to libertarianly choose what is set before us, like God could have libertarianly decided not to create the universe.

That is the conclusion that reconciles Scriptures.

Let's see if this is true according to the scriptures.

Psalm 139:1-16

O Lord, You have searched me and known me.
2 You know [a]when I sit down and [b]when I rise up;
You understand my thought from afar.
3 You [c]scrutinize my [d]path and my lying down,
And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
4 [e]Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O Lord, You know it all.
5 You have enclosed me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is too high, I cannot attain to it.
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in [f]Sheol, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand will lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will [g]overwhelm me,
And the light around me will be night,”
12 Even the darkness is not dark [h]to You,
And the night is as bright as the day.
Darkness and light are alike to You.
13 For You formed my [i]inward parts;
You wove me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will give thanks to You, for [j]I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.
15 My [k]frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.

 

[Kampioen]

Let's see if this is true according to the scriptures.

Psalm 139:1-16

O Lord, You have searched me and known me.

God says He knows because He searches. God is omni-aware.

2 You know [a]when I sit down and [b]when I rise up;
You understand my thought from afar.
3 You [c]scrutinize my [d]path and my lying down,
And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
4 [e]Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O Lord, You know it all.
5 You have enclosed me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is too high, I cannot attain to it.
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in [f]Sheol, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand will lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will [g]overwhelm me,
And the light around me will be night,”
12 Even the darkness is not dark [h]to You,
And the night is as bright as the day.
Darkness and light are alike to You.
13 For You formed my [i]inward parts;
You wove me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will give thanks to You, for [j]I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.

15 My [k]frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;

And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.

God created, saw, studied and documented everything while David's life progressed from before he was born, so knows all of those things.

Ordained means the allotted path for him in history but doesn't have to mean unconditional predetermination nor that his future isn't open.

But God does know the beginning and the end of all things so I would say He is immersively omniscient of all open future like a miraculous perfect prediction.

So all in all this Scripture passage doesn't prove unconditional predetermination.

 

[Beloved Daughter]

God says He knows because He searches. God is omni-aware.



God created, saw, studied and documented everything while David's life progressed from before he was born, so knows all of those things.

Ordained means the allotted path for him in history but doesn't have to mean unconditional predetermination nor that his future isn't open.

But God does know the beginning and the end of all things so I would say He is immersively omniscient of all open future like a miraculous perfect prediction.

So all in all this Scripture passage doesn't prove unconditional predetermination.

He is the Alpha and Omega. The beginning and the end.

Ephesians 1:3-12

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before [d]Him. In love 5 [e]He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the [f]kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In [g]Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He [h]lavished on [i]us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He [j]made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His [k]kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration [l]suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things [m]in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 [n]also we [o]have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in [p]Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

 

[Kampioen]

He is the Alpha and Omega. The beginning and the end.

Ephesians 1:3-12

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before [d]Him. In love 5 [e]He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the [f]kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In [g]Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He [h]lavished on [i]us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He [j]made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His [k]kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration [l]suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things [m]in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 [n]also we [o]have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in [p]Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

The time before He chose us, when we heard and trusted and thus He chose us ie sealed us with the Holy Spirit, was in Him before the foundation of the world too.

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[Arikel88]

There is A person who wrote this in another forum that gave na important view on freewill. He's name is cormack on that forum.

1 Corinthians 10:12-14

So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.
1. Christians are threatened and even overtaken by sins brought about through temptations.

2. God never allows us to be tempted beyond what we can bear, but rather provides an escape so that we don’t give in and fall into the sin action that the temptation prompts in us.

3. Yet Christians sin, not only are they “overtaken” in the above quote, but also in 1 John 1:8 there’s the clear report that Christians sin. Most people agree Christians are sinners too.

Conclusion: Every time a Christian sins, the Bible says God provided a way to “escape” falling into that sin. Christians have the freewill to either use that escape route or to reject the God given means to avoid yielding to temptation.

Christians have proper freewill, meaning the ability to do otherwise in any given situation. Freewill isn’t simply “a belief” but an experience, something we can confirm with our own facilities as easily as we confirm light, heat, sound and sights.

Posters who use their counter causal freedom to deny counter causal freedom are deeply confused.

There are only two things Christians can do about temptation, @grumix8. Christians can either bear with the temptation or give in and satisfy the temptation.

The Bible says God prepares a way to abstain from sin every single time Christians give in to temptation and sin, but we know for a fact that Christians do sin and will continue to sin.

The Bible confirms both our God given freedom to avoid sin and the fact that we defer from Gods good way and give into temptation and sin.

Freedom exists in exactly the way you experience it, not in some counter intuitive, fruity double dipping way you’ll read about in the Westminster confession or the London baptist confession of faith. Those things are so removed from the real world it’s terrible.

 

[Lion IRC]

"For God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control."
2 Timothy 1:7

Robots without free will lack self-control.

“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?"
Luke 6:46

If we had no free will, we WOULD do what we are told to do.

You may eat of THIS tree but not THAT tree.
How does a person without free will stop themself from eating of THAT tree?

 

[Arikel88]

Here is what bener32 guy said :
No it’s not that I call it unjust it’s that God’s judgement without free will would contradict the very definition of the word just. If man is incapable of meeting God’s expectations then His judgement is not impartial or fair. God would be showing partiality towards some but not towards others which would by definition make His judgement unjust. It’s not a matter of opinion of what is just and what isn’t, it’s a matter of is God showing partiality towards some and not towards others? If there is no free will then God is showing partiality, that would not be an opinion but a fact. Therefore if God is showing partiality then His judgement defies the definition of the word just.

there is A reason and you will understand that freewill and good and evil are something together. Cormack replied to bener32

Cormack32:

Mmhmm, but none of that helps so far as painting the subject of freewill as some kind of super elite level knowledge problem that only God in heaven can know of or speak authoritatively on. Freedom (as I’ve shared) isn’t simply believed but rather experienced.

The reason people would find your fictional solipsist funny is because he’s just arguing with himself if his beliefs are true (he’s challenging himself to debunk himself,) but his beliefs are disproven by having naturally experienced other beings besides himself. About solipsism people chide “you’d have to have a PHD to believe something like that,” it’s just so silly and not worth considering.

The same goes for playing hide and seek with freewill as if we’re not having the freewill experience daily. Freewill isn’t a knowledge problem nor would it be something hidden in the otherness of God, God communicates to us in ways we can understand, not in ways we can’t. Jesus is part of that communication, becoming ant man was good enough for Him.

I don’t think anyone will find verses explicitly arguing for a definition of freedom, freedom limited by nature or determinism because that’s not what Israel or the church was debating back in those days.

The freewill debate occurred after Christ’s resurrection between the church fathers and the Gnostics, it’s the church fathers who were on the side of freedom of the will in those early days when the debate was relevant.

 

[Arikel88]

Atpollard, another user from A forum said this. this crucial part

Atpollard:

[Genesis 50:20 NKJV] 20 "But as for you, you meant evil against me; [but] God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as [it is] this day, to save many people alive.

[Isaiah 45:7 KJV] 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Cormack said:

atpollard said: ↑

[Isaiah 45:7 KJV] 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Which is a well known false rendering. God doesn’t create “evil,” the translators simply bungled that word and every modern committee knows it. The correct translation is calamity, notice it’s supposed to be in contrast to peace, the opposite of peace isn’t evil. God brings calamity upon wicked cities for example.

Atpollard said :

Cormack said: ↑

Which is a well known false rendering. God doesn’t create “evil,” the translators simply bungled that word and every modern committee knows it. The correct translation is calamity, notice it’s supposed to be in contrast to peace, the opposite of peace isn’t evil. God brings calamity upon wicked cities for example.

I agree.
However, the verse still says that GOD DOES IT and it does not lay the blame for all of the complexities of life at the feet of MAN'S FREE WILL (which was the point that both quoted verses were refuting).

Technically, it is NOT a "false rendering". Rather, the meaning of "evil" has changed since the 1600's. One might have once spoken of an "evil odor" or "evil fortune" having nothing to do with satanic forces, but simply meaning corrupt, spoiled or bad. It was later replaced by "ill" (having nothing to do with sickness, but just meaning "bad").

Cormack said:

atpollard said: ↑

I agree.

Then there’s no need to continue to use an inaccurate, misleading translation that has the poor form of stating God is the cause of something He explicitly distances Himself from (1 thessalonians 4:3.)


For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication.
1 John 2:16


For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world.
That’s the stated will of God, not the secret will that exists in the mind of western theologians.

Just like in the case of 1 Corinthians 10:12-14 God doesn’t want Christians to sin, so He commands against it and provides a way of escape every single time we are tempted to sin.

For posters who believe God decreed sins like fornication or “created evil” as a part of his inscrutable secret council, decreeing them in secret while telling humanity to their face not to sin, you’re deep in the grips of a man made philosophy.

Yet reason, scripture and common sense are nothing compared to the private spirit of truth that confirms the philosophy of some people present in the chat.

Their philosophy is the mystery of God, so to challenge their philosophy is to challenge God himself, making a god of their philosophy.

You and I are mere second class citizens in the Kingdom next to their glorious secret knowledge, approved by Gods private testimony (a testimony that differs amidst Christians who supposedly have the same spirit.....)

Atpollard said:

[Genesis 50:20 NKJV] 20 "But as for you, you meant evil against me; [but] God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as [it is] this day, to save many people alive.

[Isaiah 45:7 KJV] 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

atpollard said: ↑

[Isaiah 45:7 KJV] 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

The word evil is not the correct translation see these examples:
New International Version
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

New Living Translation
I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

English Standard Version
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

When you see this you see that good and evil are the base of what humans with thier conscience say " Freewill is part of our fundamental in discerning good and evil. Elijah the prophet he did something which I will post now.

 

[Arikel88]

Elijah the prophet is an example people that destiny can be changed when he recieved word from the Lord. He was to sentence only Jezabel for her wrongdoing but instead he sentence her family aswell this was wrong before the lord !!! But the thing that most scholars and theologist dislike is that he added to the Lord. He added he's own will and wanted to punish Jezabel family which he wrong G-d but still the lord forgive him and destiny and what G-d said with his words were changed !!!!

Freewill decided to change the future and the Lord knowing Elijah error let it happened and from there continued the destiny of Israel and the whole world. Know G-d Elijah did error and he from destiny was altered unkown to us and the future was changed. an error in history amde by elijah but reveals to us that desinty can be change but not like Elijah but we can pray and ask G-d to change our destiny in this world of predistanation , God’s general sovereignty, and God’s specific sovereignty. He allowed it but we must not do evil or look for evil but G-d gives us the ability to change our destiny not Elijah's error but thru prayer and love to ask him to give us A destiny where we can do the things of saving others and changing our path into our dream life with him.

 

[Arikel88]

disciple Clint said: ↑

The word evil is not the correct translation see these examples:
New International Version
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

New Living Translation
I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

English Standard Version
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.
Click to expand...

... More straining at gnats. [sigh]

YOU SAID:
One more time from the top:

disciple Clint said: ↑

My thought would be that all these problems were caused by man and not by God.

• emphasis on "caused by man" and "not caused by God"

TO WHICH I REPLIED:

atpollard said: ↑

[Genesis 50:20 NKJV] 20 "But as for you, you meant evil against me; [but] God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as [it is] this day, to save many people alive.

[Isaiah 45:7 KJV] 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

• Genesis 50 claims that the evil actions of the brothers of Joseph, were MEANT FOR GOOD (as in actions intended as part of God's plan) BY GOD! Note the emphasis that contrary to your opinion, it was GOD and not MAN that was driving events.
• Isaiah 45, setting aside the gnat of the correct translation of a single word, is also about the fact that "I the LORD do all these things" which means that "all things" are not the result of Man's action with God looking on helplessly wishing that people would just obey Him.

ANOTHER KJV HATER JUMPED ALL OVER THAT TRANSLATION AS WELL, AND I EXPLAINED THE RENDERING OF THE WORD AS "EVIL" WAS NOT AN ERROR:

atpollard said: ↑

Technically, it is NOT a "false rendering". Rather, the meaning of "evil" has changed since the 1600's. One might have once spoken of an "evil odor" or "evil fortune" having nothing to do with satanic forces, but simply meaning corrupt, spoiled or bad. It was later replaced by "ill" (having nothing to do with sickness, but just meaning "bad").

In conclusion, you are correct that there are more accurate renderings of the verse in Modern English. However a more accurate rendering only makes my case even stronger. The scripture deliberately presents pairs of opposites and concludes with a bold exclamation that God is in control of all of them. The use of opposites is a literary device to "bookend" a category and imply "and everything in between". Thus the whole point of the verse is God is in control of ALL THINGS!

There can be no clearer refutation of "My thought would be that all these problems were caused by man and not by God" than that.

 

[Arikel88]

Just to finish this

Atpollard cocluded:

Psalm 51:5-6 [NASB]
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. 6 Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being, And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.

Psalm 58:2-5 [NASB]
2 No, in heart you work unrighteousness; On earth you weigh out the violence of your hands. 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. 4 They have venom like the venom of a serpent; Like a deaf cobra that stops up its ear, 5 So that it does not hear the voice of charmers, [Or] a skillful caster of spells.

John 3:18-20 [NASB]
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

John 8:33-36 [NASB]
33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?" 34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Romans 1:18-21 [NASB]
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 3:9-12 [NASB]
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

Ephesians 2:1-3 [NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

We are born with the freedom to follow our natural desires into the slavery to sin. Only God can set man free to follow righteousness.

 

[Arikel88]

At pollard said about Ted :


TedT said: ↑

light cannot create dark, good cannot create evil.

Romans 7:7-24 [NASB]

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin [is] dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 13 Therefore did that which is good become [a cause of] death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful. 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I [would] like to [do,] but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want [to do,] I agree with the Law, [confessing] that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good [is] not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?


Are you aware that in physics, "darkness" does not exist. Think about it for a moment.

• How would you measure the amount of "darkness" in a room?
• How would you capture "darkness" to measure it?

"Darkness" does not exist. It is an abstract concept defined by the lack of light. Light exists, so you can capture photons and measure how much "Light" is in a room. The closer that a room gets to "zero light", the "darker" it appears.

If "Light" did not exist, then the very concept of "darkness" (the absence of light) would be meaningless. So the simple fact that LIGHT exists, by virtue of the fact that it exists, defines DARKNESS. Light needs to do NOTHING to create Darkness except to exist.

God exists and IS GOOD by virtue of His very existence (just like Light). As the existence of LIGHT defines the absence of Light as "Darkness" ... so the existence of GOOD (God) defines the absence of Good as "Evil".

As LIGHT creates "darkness" and HEAT creates "cold", so GOOD creates "evil" ... simply by existing.

• GOOD is "towards God"
• EVIL is "away from God"

Two opposite directions created by one common reference point.