What is "freewill"?

Arikel88

Active member
Ted replied to atpollard

atpollard said:
Paul seemed to claim that the Law made sin possible (in the verse I quoted), yet the Law was completely good and that fact only made sin even more evil.
I think it must be your preconceptions that make it seem that was what he meant, because to me scripture is clear sin came before the law.

Please consider:
It is written: 1 Timothy 1:9 We realize that law is not enacted for the righteous, but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful, for the unholy and profane...proving that sin came first and the law was its rebuttal as Gal 3:19 supports Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions ... with the added info about the purpose of the law from Rom 3:20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin. The awareness is not an awareness of what sin is but an awareness of our own culpability before the law, our own real sinfulness as the law convicts us of sin so that we are ashamed and see the need to seek a Saviour.

With the law being given to convict us of sin, there is no use to give it to a righteous to cause sin.
 

Arikel88

Active member
Ted finished the conversation:

Cormack said:
“Our fall” meaning the fall of humanity, or something else? I’d enjoy reading what Bible verses you believe are in favour of a fall from grace pre earth.
When I write 'before the foundation of the world' I mean 'before the creation of the physical universe'. All of the creation of people in HIS image was before the creation of the physical universe', ie, it was a spirit world full of spirits....maybe the original Sheol.

We all accept that someone was alive and self and other aware before the creation of the physical universe because when GOD was using the story of the creation of the physical universe to school Job, HE claimed that the morning stars and all the sons of GOD witnessed that creation and sang HIS praise, Job 38:7 ...while the morning stars sang together and ALL, (kol), the Sons of GOD shouted for joy?.

But there were people there who understood the meaning of what they were seeing and that it proved that YHWH was indeed their GOD. That they sang together implies that they understand music and if music, then mathematics and if math, then all the other mental disciplines not based upon physicality. It also implies that they had a telepathic language like GOD has now with HIS angels, spirits who work for HIM, angel being a job description not a race or type of being.

The word kol Strong's H3605 is also interesting: all, the whole of anything, totality, everything, etc. So instead of just some people being there witching the creation of the physical universe we have the strong possibility that indeed every created person was there, as this interpretation of the verse only bumps against our being created on earth theory, not the words themselves.

We know also that HIS elect were chosen before the foundation of the world. Since I reject the Calvinist rendering of unconditional election, I suggest that there must have been a reason for the election of some and the non-election of others. I also think that faith had to have something to do with election and sin caused non-election.

Is there an indication anything like this is mentioned in scripture? Not if you accept the created on earth theology but once you see a possibility for our pre-conception existence then Col 1:23 offers possibilities: ...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. The pertinent phrase: This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, has some interesting implications. Every creature under heaven is either hyperbole or it is the truth. But in any case, the words has been proclaimed is in the past tense, referring to a finished, completed, action, that is, the proclamation of the gospel of salvation to every person created has already happened.

Since these words imply the proclamation was finished going out to every creature, then we must accept that it went out before the creation of the world because it has not been fulfilled since that creation yet Paul says it was finished.

So who heard this proclamation of the gospel? Hearing the gospel implies responding to it by a choice to put your faith in it or to reject it. So we add all these things together and understand that the gospel may have been proclaimed to every person created in HIS image before the foundation, creation, of the physical universe and were asked to make a choice to accept it or to reject it. Part of this gospel would have been HIS declaring HIS intention to elect or chose everyone who put their faith in in HIM to be saved from all sin to become HIS heavenly Bride by the work of the Son while anyone who rejected this gospel would become eternally enslaved to the addictive power of evil rendering them eternally unfit to ever fulfill HIS purpose in our creation to be HIS Bride.

This must have happened before we saw the creation of the physical universe because once we saw this proof of HIS divinity and power no one not already addicted to evil would ever reject HIM or HIS gospel, knowing the reality of hell waited them. Therefore this decision to accept HIS gospel and become HIS elect or to reject this gospel and become HIS eternal enemies had to be by faith, an unproven hope that HE was telling us the truth or that HE was a liar and a false god. Thus our response to the gospel was the base for election and reprobation. The Satanic fall must have occured before the foundation of the world when we were elected and then after the earth was established, Satan and all sinners, elect and demonic, were flung into Sheol which is now in the centre of the earth and sown into the world as explained in the two part parable of the weeds in Matt 13.
 

Arikel88

Active member
Know that only G-d can do good and evil and they are base of freewill, you cannot advance on your own efforts only thru prayer and sacrifice lean on G-d's wisdom and ask him him the right way only thru your discernment of love can you see thru good and evil and find he loves and find the commandments love thy negihbor and love thy god with all heart can you make the decision in life and fulfill the law thru love and salvation know your destiny can be changed but you must ask G-d to make it happen. Freewill is giving to you to choose to follow him he can do light and shadows for he is above it all. We are only children in this world of decision make the right decision he accompany you in all of your decision.
 

Arikel88

Active member
Know that free will is choice to do God's will but destiny is what consequence you decided with what you did with it and know that G-d can change that consequence regardless you do good or bad. When Isaiah did the lord's will and did good he did not do what Elijah did or When Moses also did what elijah did when he was supposed to go to the rock and hit the rock isnted he was told to pray. Mistake of his that changed the future btu still of his errors and that humans have changed the streamline of destiny and moved the plan of G-d. G-d forgave Moses and all bad action ended up good in the end and he got to heaven.

Just like Elijah the prophet did to the future who did bad and change what G-d said something many scholars, writers, and people dislike but still G-d the plan was moved centimeters he continued and the plan moved forward. Not trying to say G-d has error it was Elijah's error and Moses error even G-d's wisdom continued from there just like Adam falls is error but humanity origin was divine. That from the small things all have purpose in G-d's plan. Many prophets did errors but still G-d plan continue reminding that it doesn't matter the error, actions, or emotions that we our not perfect and people have misconception that their senses are pefect. That for reason all things happen and the lord saved but that logic humans have that people decide and that the story of prophets, humans, and kings who all worship G-d that their works and hsitory in the bible was perfect and they did not error.

Because humans have an error they think that everything is right that they do not error that how the modern world teaches you that society and it's roots are perfect and they normal. Reveals that in the history of humans in the kings of Israel, the history of men, and women in history have errors A bunch of them but we consider that our history and everything people believe has no error and history is right always but G-d shows us that erros not his for he did not error but humans animal character and human sinful nature flawed. But still this what decision do and we have freewill to make decisions, this is the conflict for humans those do no stop the lord and his logic for he has more logic and G-d more branches of logic we do not understand for he's will he can make faith like a mustard and make it grow. And even in error fix it and continue with the plan even though it contradicts in our logic it's all for a purpose and the purpose continues. Simply our logic isn't G-d and he is right that we cannot see the future but we must have faith to continue with G-d. That we must base us on our logic in the sense that we think that we are always right.

People G-d allows those moments in history to test us that people who read this say there is no error in history and their sense they think that what they learned in schools and what society teaches us that our perception si right because we base it in logic. No don't trust human logic have faith in G-d he let things like Elijah and Moses for reason and it is all based on freedom to choose your destiny. Not trying to say let decision like Elijah be done and everyone do it, no way want people to do what Elijah did but G-d word is love and he let destiny continue from those points and still the plan of G-d continues.
 

Arikel88

Active member
logic-
Logic is the study of correct reasoning or good arguments. It is often defined in a more narrow sense as the science of deductively valid inferences or of logical truths. In this sense, it is equivalent to formal logic and constitutes a formal science investigating how conclusions follow from premises in a topic-neutral way or which propositions are true only in virtue of the logical vocabulary they contain


No the question is do you understand G-d's logic ? Do you know what he lets us know about his logic. No, I do understand what he let us understand to where we are responsible. G-d's logic even if it hard tp understand is love !!! how hard that word is but that is why and women have headstart in love. You say you uderstand but G-d is terrible in good deeds and even for our logic doesn't make sense because we are sinners and our ways of life cannot compute I reccomend to log off. Do good things for others to understand what love is because love is everything and you try to put in one way it does make sense sorry.

Tercon reccomend you to see again passion fo christ and see the pain and love he promise at the end. Sufferment is A way to understand love ;D. A step closer to understand G-d logic not your own or mine because our is faulty since birth.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Know that free will is choice to do God's will but destiny is what consequence you decided with what you did with it and know that G-d can change that consequence regardless you do good or bad. When Isaiah did the lord's will and did good he did not do what Elijah did or When Moses also did what elijah did when he was supposed to go to the rock and hit the rock isnted he was told to pray. Mistake of his that changed the future btu still of his errors and that humans have changed the streamline of destiny and moved the plan of G-d. G-d forgave Moses and all bad action ended up good in the end and he got to heaven.

Just like Elijah the prophet did to the future who did bad and change what G-d said something many scholars, writers, and people dislike but still G-d the plan was moved centimeters he continued and the plan moved forward. Not trying to say G-d has error it was Elijah's error and Moses error even G-d's wisdom continued from there just like Adam falls is error but humanity origin was divine. That from the small things all have purpose in G-d's plan. Many prophets did errors but still G-d plan continue reminding that it doesn't matter the error, actions, or emotions that we our not perfect and people have misconception that their senses are pefect. That for reason all things happen and the lord saved but that logic humans have that people decide and that the story of prophets, humans, and kings who all worship G-d that their works and hsitory in the bible was perfect and they did not error.

Because humans have an error they think that everything is right that they do not error that how the modern world teaches you that society and it's roots are perfect and they normal. Reveals that in the history of humans in the kings of Israel, the history of men, and women in history have errors A bunch of them but we consider that our history and everything people believe has no error and history is right always but G-d shows us that erros not his for he did not error but humans animal character and human sinful nature flawed. But still this what decision do and we have freewill to make decisions, this is the conflict for humans those do no stop the lord and his logic for he has more logic and G-d more branches of logic we do not understand for he's will he can make faith like a mustard and make it grow. And even in error fix it and continue with the plan even though it contradicts in our logic it's all for a purpose and the purpose continues. Simply our logic isn't G-d and he is right that we cannot see the future but we must have faith to continue with G-d. That we must base us on our logic in the sense that we think that we are always right.

People G-d allows those moments in history to test us that people who read this say there is no error in history and their sense they think that what they learned in schools and what society teaches us that our perception si right because we base it in logic. No don't trust human logic have faith in G-d he let things like Elijah and Moses for reason and it is all based on freedom to choose your destiny. Not trying to say let decision like Elijah be done and everyone do it, no way want people to do what Elijah did but G-d word is love and he let destiny continue from those points and still the plan of G-d continues.

Like history logic can only be true, and if not, then it isn't history nor logic. For both history and logic are God's.
 

Arikel88

Active member
This is your promblem many branches of logic and all have purpose you don't understand all of them you must understand them all.
 
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Arikel88

Active member
Still the same promblem logic is way so many scientist have difficulty your logic because the bible isn't base on human logic sorry but in G-d's logic and to know understand logic read bible simply people ahve change and logic differ in each civilization. Don't put your faith in human logic or in theirs but in G-d's logic. liek this bible verse.

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.

your still the same as all people ,your logic in your way or in the dictioanry still that is the logic of the lord.
 

Arikel88

Active member
Still the same promblem logic is way so many scientist have difficulty your logic because the bible isn't base on human logic sorry but in G-d's logic and to know understand logic read bible simply people ahve change and logic differ in each civilization. Don't put your faith in human logic or in theirs but in G-d's logic. liek this bible verse.

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.

your still the same as all people ,your logic in your way or in the dictioanry still that is the logic of the lord.
sorry rephrase last part: your logic your way or in the dictionary still that is not the logic of the lord !

forgot the not.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
This is your promblem many branches of logic and all have purpose you don't understand all of them you must understand them all.
Still the same promblem logic is way so many scientist have difficulty your logic because the bible isn't base on human logic sorry but in G-d's logic and to know understand logic read bible simply people ahve change and logic differ in each civilization. Don't put your faith in human logic or in theirs but in G-d's logic. liek this bible verse.

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.

your still the same as all people ,your logic in your way or in the dictioanry still that is the logic of the lord.
sorry rephrase last part: your logic your way or in the dictionary still that is not the logic of the lord !

forgot the not.

Nonsense, according to YOUR "logic" then God's logical reality isn't knowable to believers.
 

Alive

Active member
Ah Man, you responded to him; now he'll know we are here...
Unregenerate man's will is thoroughly bound up in sin and by sin. His will 'Godward' is dead and has no efficacy.
I like brother Sproule's use of 'inclinations' contrasted in the unregenerate and regenerate.
Fallen Adam's inclinations are always sin.
The New Man's new heart and Life of Christ within changes this. Although we can still yield to flesh and sin, our inclinations are increasingly obedience to Christ. Our will 'Godward' is no longer bound up in sin.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Still the same promblem logic is way so many scientist have difficulty your logic because the bible isn't base on human logic sorry but in G-d's logic and to know understand logic read bible simply people ahve change and logic differ in each civilization. Don't put your faith in human logic or in theirs but in G-d's logic. liek this bible verse.

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.

your still the same as all people ,your logic in your way or in the dictioanry still that is the logic of the lord.
Man lives by subjectivity because he is unaware of truth. Many therefore create commonly accepted falsehoods that become seen as norms.

God's ways are not those norms of men. If one is to know God's ways they must cease leaning upon the commonly accepted norms and learn what God's truth is. For example? In Rome to be bisexual was a norm. In God's realm it was saying that "the ways of the Romans" are false.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
I believe that "free will" only exists in God and salvation is a sovereign act of God, that starts in Him and ends in the believer believing according to His Will, making His Will ours too.
if free will means the ability to make a choice that is contrary to our nature:
then God does not have free will .
for ex: God cannot choose to lie
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Still the same promblem logic is way so many scientist have difficulty your logic because the bible isn't base on human logic sorry but in G-d's logic and to know understand logic read bible simply people ahve change and logic differ in each civilization. Don't put your faith in human logic or in theirs but in G-d's logic. liek this bible verse.

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.

your still the same as all people ,your logic in your way or in the dictioanry still that is the logic of the lord.
God wants developed in believers a higher spiritual IQ than the moronic human capacities of Satan's subjects.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
I said...

God wants developed in believers a higher spiritual IQ than the moronic human capacities of Satan's subjects.

It was in reference to the following passage.

The man without the spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness
[absurd and illogical] , and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.


1 Corinthians 2:14



............
 

Tercon

Well-known member
if free will means the ability to make a choice that is contrary to our nature:
then God does not have free will .
for ex: God cannot choose to lie

Actually "free will" sounds oxymoronic. Like the means to oppose or destroy oneself is some kind of "freedom". Sounds more like a slave to sin than "freedom".

If God is omniscience, then God His children know He can't oppose Himself. And as believer, we know not to oppose His will.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
if free will means the ability to make a choice that is contrary to our nature:
then God does not have free will .
for ex: God cannot choose to lie
God sent angels to tell lies to the false prophets to give them a taste of their own medicine. 1 Kings 22:21-23
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
Sure you did.



But you can't follow His when you're following your own.



Sure you can have your "will and way". But you can't be a believer (and have God's will) and and have your "own will and way" at the same time.



Why don't you just read and reason for comprehension instead?

A bit of straw.

You sure your will is not defining "God's".

We alll tend to do that a bit.

Your word is a lamp unto my feet.

Not chains unto my feet.

Makes sense to me.
 
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Arikel88

Active member
Just to explain you can choose and have that it is giving because remember the devil had freewill and man can choose freewill does not exist like in hebrew the closest you can get is this
phrase freewill does not exist in the hebrew langauge it conception does not exist. But still to choose " לבחור" It is what closest word to freewill of choosing is.
People the scripture uses the word "will"
בצוואה
and "free"
But to describe a person as free, as in not a slave, you’d say בֶּן/בַּת חוֹרִין (ben/baht hoh-REEN





Free and will do exist but to make in concept it is need the thing of freedom and good and evil the conscience to be able in hebrew in writting but they cuould not explain they did not have the experience of government,freedom of women, freedom of slavery, and concept of theology were needed but still the base is that choice by God to be with him in doing good or evil but consequence is death for evil or eternal life for good.


Their is gray area and that is Elijah's error, Moses Error, and Huldah as prophets that they made mistakes and change the destiny of the plan of God but God cover it with forgivness and let them learn from thier errors for A purpose and all purpose being good or evil will be in the end A happy ending in revelations. Put things in God hands and put love they God and nieghbor and he will do the rest ;D.
The importance is to put things in God's hands even if it's hard to do the freewill put things in God hands no matter what. Even we say now in our modern times putting our hands is that we are happy and thankful for what happens and faithful. Did people back in the old put thier ahnds in God trusted him ?


Yes


Psalm 138:7
your gith hand saves me and that action required for us to put our hands in his ;D.


1 Peter 5:6


humble and he will life you with his hands


proverbs 29:25


Trust in the lord


Ecclesiastes 2:24


From his hand


Isaias 48:13


His hand have created all




the most important hand
Deuteronomy 7:8


His hand took Israel from Egypt.


Even it is not possibel for he all powerful to walk blindfolded and he holds your hands and guides you get to heaven sometimes we must take chances in life.
 
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