What is it?

Furion

Well-known member
I posted this in response to someone.

I don't understand your objections.

You already believe you are material, dirt and mostly water.

Your thoughts are electrical stimuli.

What other 'mystery' there be is no mystery for you, it's just material arranged in a certain configuration, with temporary stimuli animation.

Pretty simple really.

If you truly believe something substantially different, state so.

Otherwise live with the above, it's all you got by your own definition of life, the universe, and everything.

I am giving opportunity for other atheists to give their view beyond the above.

I believe one here claims to be buddhist. I'm sure their view would differ.

But for the hardened atheist, give me your reasoning why life for the atheist is different from the above.

Personal meaning about purpose and meaning to life is irrelevant because it cannot rise above your material universe.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Personal meaning about purpose and meaning to life is irrelevant because it cannot rise above your material universe.
Purpose and meaning arise from the parts of our material universe being arranged in the right ways. Saying that matter in motion is all that there is in an atheistic universe is true yet misleading - like saying that a great art exhibition is nothing but bits of paint on canvas, or that an incredible Lego creation is nothing but stacked bricks. As always, the devil is in the details :)
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
I posted this in response to someone.



I am giving opportunity for other atheists to give their view beyond the above.

I believe one here claims to be buddhist. I'm sure their view would differ.

But for the hardened atheist, give me your reasoning why life for the atheist is different from the above.

Personal meaning about purpose and meaning to life is irrelevant because it cannot rise above your material universe.
This is a line from your post....

"You already believe you are material, dirt and mostly water. Your thoughts are electrical stimuli".

You imply that atheists think that the above must be true. It's quite a deflationary statement that I have never seen justified that that's all we would be.
 

Furion

Well-known member
Purpose and meaning arise from the parts of our material universe being arranged in the right ways. Saying that matter in motion is all that there is in an atheistic universe is true yet misleading - like saying that a great art exhibition is nothing but bits of paint on canvas, or that an incredible Lego creation is nothing but stacked bricks. As always, the devil is in the details :)
I know it is true.

What I understand you to be saying is embellishment.

There is no devil for you, but I see nothing beyond the material assessment to this world, you've not moved the needle.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
I know it is true.

What I understand you to be saying is embellishment.

There is no devil for you, but I see nothing beyond the material assessment to this world, you've not moved the needle.
The needle doesn't need to be moved. All you need to do is change your perspective and enjoy the art exhibition instead of complaining that it's all nothing more than bits of paint on canvas. You appear to have a terminal case of not seeing the forest for the trees.
 

Furion

Well-known member
This is a line from your post....

"You already believe you are material, dirt and mostly water. Your thoughts are electrical stimuli".

You imply that atheists think that the above must be true. It's quite a deflationary statement that I have never seen justified that that's all we would be.
Your opportunity to go beyond it or to refute is now passed I suppose. What was stated is for brevity's sake.

If you think you are more than they above, if you feel there be something more substantive that must be considered, state so. Adding flowery language simply does nothing to refute the foundational truths of this material universe.
 

Furion

Well-known member
The needle doesn't need to be moved. All you need to do is change your perspective and enjoy the art exhibition instead of complaining that it's all nothing more than bits of paint on canvas. You appear to have a terminal case of not seeing the forest for the trees.
What I take from your words is that one can look at it from a different angle and one will be happier.

If I look a a stick from one angle, it is a weapon, from another angle it is organic waste.

It's just a stick.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Your opportunity to go beyond it or to refute is now passed I suppose. What was stated is for brevity's sake.

If you think you are more than they above, if you feel there be something more substantive that must be considered, state so. Adding flowery language simply does nothing to refute the foundational truths of this material universe.
This doesn't justify your claim.
 

Gus Bovona

Active member
I posted this in response to someone.



I am giving opportunity for other atheists to give their view beyond the above.

I believe one here claims to be buddhist. I'm sure their view would differ.

But for the hardened atheist, give me your reasoning why life for the atheist is different from the above.

Personal meaning about purpose and meaning to life is irrelevant because it cannot rise above your material universe.
What you're missing is the concept of emergent properties. Neither oxygen nor hydrogen are wet (at room temperature) but configured correctly they are water which is wet but which is nothing but hydrogen and oxygen. Wetness is en emergent property, something which does not exist at certain level of analysis, but which does exist at another. So meaning and purpose doesn't exist at one level of the materials that make up the universe, but can emerge when those materials are configured in a certain way.

Nouveau's comment about not seeing the forest for the trees says the same thing, I just had a surplus of words this morning that I could write, so I did.
 

Komodo

Active member
I posted this in response to someone.



I am giving opportunity for other atheists to give their view beyond the above.

I believe one here claims to be buddhist. I'm sure their view would differ.

But for the hardened atheist, give me your reasoning why life for the atheist is different from the above.

Personal meaning about purpose and meaning to life is irrelevant because it cannot rise above your material universe.
Thoughts, hopes and goals undeniably exist.

Thoughts, hopes and goals are enough to give us purposes.

If thoughts, hopes and goals are ultimately the products of the material universe, then that means the material universe is enough to provide purposes in life. It wouldn't be a case of "rising above" that universe.

Even if they aren't ultimately the products of the material universe, that wouldn't necessarily mean that God existed. It would just mean that the material universe wasn't all that existed, and so materialism as a philosophy was wrong. But theism is not the only alternative to materialism.
 
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Furion

Well-known member
Thoughts, hopes and goals undeniably exist.

Thoughts, hopes and goals are enough to give us purposes.

If thoughts, hopes and goals are ultimately the products of the material universe, then that means the material universe is enough to provide purposes in life. It wouldn't be a case of "rising above" that universe.
Sure, subjective opinions can range from "my purpose is to be president" to my "purpose is to be a pretty princess"

Even if they aren't ultimately the products of the material universe,
Well, they aren't.

that wouldn't necessarily mean that God existed. It would just mean that the material universe wasn't all that existed, and so materialism as a philosophy was wrong. But theism is not the only alternative to materialism.
How can there be more to your material universe?

If there is, why do you think you have sufficient knowledge to claim anything?
 

Furion

Well-known member
What you're missing is the concept of emergent properties. Neither oxygen nor hydrogen are wet (at room temperature) but configured correctly they are water which is wet but which is nothing but hydrogen and oxygen. Wetness is en emergent property, something which does not exist at certain level of analysis, but which does exist at another. So meaning and purpose doesn't exist at one level of the materials that make up the universe, but can emerge when those materials are configured in a certain way.

Nouveau's comment about not seeing the forest for the trees says the same thing, I just had a surplus of words this morning that I could write, so I did.
Not missing anything.

"Emergence" is just post hoc rationalizations.

Reductionism doesn't lead to answers, and neither does rationalizations from observations. Just a mental framework, none of it is evidenced.
 
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