What is it?

Algor

Active member
....
Kindness. That's the whole thing. The rest is noise.

:)


Presumably you do not really mean that the whole of good behaviour is to be kind to the person who rapes and kills children, who defrauds the poor or who commands genocide.

But that is what you are saying.
 

Furion

Well-known member
Purpose and meaning are subjective. We each have to find our own purpose and meaning in life. There is no cosmic purpose for humans that I am aware of.
Ok, purpose encompasses meaning, and really throws out all "why's" as well.

It is the baseline to the universe, there is no purpose or meaning in an atoms in motion universe. Even personal, especially personal.

I am curious at times how atheists build upon the baseline, hence this thread.

Truly, I can see no reason in this way of thinking, why building this way or that means anything. Other than self-preservation of not getting killed by other humans for building in an allegedly "bad" way.

It is nonsensical to ask for meaning in a universal, objective sense. We do not ask, 'what is that mountain's purpose?' There is no reason to ask 'what is the purpose of human life' either.

For me purpose is found in the teachings of Secular Humanism. I find purpose in life in spending time with those I love, with helping others, and leaning new things. Its not much more complex than that. I do not think there is some cosmic meaning for a single species of primate on one planet in a universe of a trillion trillion worlds.

Thinking the universe has meaning just for humans is the epitome of hubris and ego.

Dr. Tyson said it well:
  • "For me, I am driven by two main philosophies, know more today about the world than I knew yesterday. And lessen the suffering of others. You'd be surprised how far that gets you.” -- Neil deGrasse Tyson

So did the Dahli Lama:
  • "My religion is simply this: kindness." -- His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama

As did Jesus:
  • "Treat others the same way you want them to treat you." - Luke 6:31
  • “In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets." -- Matthew 7:12
  • "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." -- John 13:34
Kindness. That's the whole thing. The rest is noise.

:)
Please, quote anyone, just not the chicken man, he is a douche.
 

Gus Bovona

Active member
Ok. Not a big deal, I am not here to argue with you about it.
OK, but it looks to me like you've changed your mind. You originally said:

But for the hardened atheist, give me your reasoning why life for the atheist is different from the above.

When I did just that, when I offered a way that materialism could lead to meaning and purpose, you pushed back (which is basically arguing):

Not missing anything.

"Emergence" is just post hoc rationalizations.

Reductionism doesn't lead to answers, and neither does rationalizations from observations. Just a mental framework, none of it is evidenced.
If you don't want to argue anymore, that's fine, but that is a change that happened as we were arguing, and you invited atheists to offer their differing perspective. So it's odd that you don't want to do that anymore. But, I have to accept your decision, that's your right, so I will respect that.

See you next time.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Presumably you do not really mean that the whole of good behaviour is to be kind to the person who rapes and kills children, who defrauds the poor or who commands genocide.

But that is what you are saying.
Of course not. I am saying that our primary motivation should always be kindness. One who kills children is not practicing kindness and, unfortunate, we have to remove them from society.

However, if you have two choices and one is kindness, try kindness. You'll rarely regret it. Not in the extreme example you give but in things like dealing with immigrant children on our border or the homeless or the poor. Kindness and understanding and help should always be first. If the choice is to understand and help or to become cold and blame them for being lazy and cause them to suffer well, I suggest kindness.

And that is the meaning of life for me - but it is subjective. We can each decide for ourselves.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
No I get it, I see why you focused on the word simple. It is a simple concept, it is an impossibly complex mechanism.
I do not think it is impossibly complex. I think we are making strides towards understanding, but do not expect it any time soon.
 

Algor

Active member
Of course not. I am saying that our primary motivation should always be kindness. One who kills children is not practicing kindness and, unfortunate, we have to remove them from society.

If our primary motivation is kindness then why do we have to remove anyone from society?

However, if you have two choices and one is kindness, try kindness.

You always have choices.

You'll rarely regret it. Not in the extreme example you give but in things like dealing with immigrant children on our border or the homeless or the poor.

OK, so a homeless guy starts yelling at me and chasing me. Happened a month or so ago to me. I should try kindness? No, I should run or defend myself. A garage tries to stiff me for $200. I should try kindness? A trainee is hopelessly incompetant and a danger to his patients. My primary responsibility should be kindness to him?

Seriously, you don't actually believe this to be true. If you do, you are an objective danger to other people.
 

Furion

Well-known member
OK, but it looks to me like you've changed your mind. You originally said:



When I did just that, when I offered a way that materialism could lead to meaning and purpose, you pushed back (which is basically arguing):


If you don't want to argue anymore, that's fine, but that is a change that happened as we were arguing, and you invited atheists to offer their differing perspective. So it's odd that you don't want to do that anymore. But, I have to accept your decision, that's your right, so I will respect that.

See you next time.
Ya ok.
 

Furion

Well-known member
I do not think it is impossibly complex. I think we are making strides towards understanding, but do not expect it any time soon.
We'll, I would think discovery of the precise method, and I mean exact, down to the finest detail, of how life arose would be the first stage.

I would call that semi impossible. For me this is not horse shoes and hand grenades, plausibilities are nice but not scientifically enough for determining truth.

And then the exact mechanisms of how from that life, consciousness arose.

I see that as a double headed enigma.

But ok, we will just agree it's mighty difficult.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
If our primary motivation is kindness then why do we have to remove anyone from society?
To protect people from those of us that are violent and seek to harm others.
OK, so a homeless guy starts yelling at me and chasing me. Happened a month or so ago to me. I should try kindness? No, I should run or defend myself. A garage tries to stiff me for $200. I should try kindness? A trainee is hopelessly incompetant and a danger to his patients. My primary responsibility should be kindness to him?
I love that you are arguing against kindness.
Seriously, you don't actually believe this to be true. If you do, you are an objective danger to other people.
Sounds good. Take care.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
We'll, I would think discovery of the precise method, and I mean exact, down to the finest detail, of how life arose would be the first stage.

I would call that semi impossible. For me this is not horse shoes and hand grenades, plausibilities are nice but not scientifically enough for determining truth.

And then the exact mechanisms of how from that life, consciousness arose.

I see that as a double headed enigma.

But ok, we will just agree it's mighty difficult.
Yeah, if you are going to set the bar that high, it probably is impossible.

That is like me saying I will believe the resurrection once Christians can tell me what Jesus ate, and I mean exact, down to the finest detail, for each day of dis life from birth to crucifixion.

We do not even need abiogenesis to true, let alone known exactly, down to the finest detail, to establish how thought works.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
In that case, in this situation, protection of people is primary, not kindness. Ergo, everything other than kindness is not just noise.
Sure.
Wow. It's hard to understate how much that comes across as a bad-faith statement.
OK.

I said I think we should be kind to each other. If you see that as some kind of dangerous ideology that will cause criminals to run unchecked in our streets then we are not even on the same planet.

But thanks for the reply - i like the way you tore it apart.

Kindness is still good though :)
 

Algor

Active member
I said I think we should be kind to each other. If you see that as some kind of dangerous ideology that will cause criminals to run unchecked in our streets then we are not even on the same planet.

You said
"our primary motivation should always be kindness."
"Kindness and understanding and help should always be first."
"Kindness. That's the whole thing. The rest is noise."
(emphases mine, for the purposes of clarifying the problem)

Those are insupportable statements, even in day to day life. I don't think even you think they are true. Then you went on to portray me as arguing against kindness, which is essentially a bad-faith take on what I was saying, at the very least.:)

Just admit you were being hyperbolic and move on, for pity's sake.:)
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
You said
"our primary motivation should always be kindness."
"Kindness and understanding and help should always be first."
"Kindness. That's the whole thing. The rest is noise."
(emphases mine, for the purposes of clarifying the problem)

Those are insupportable statements, even in day to day life. I don't think even you think they are true. Then you went on to portray me as arguing against kindness, which is essentially a bad-faith take on what I was saying, at the very least.:)

Just admit you were being hyperbolic and move on, for pity's sake.:)
I admit that.
 

Furion

Well-known member
Yeah, if you are going to set the bar that high, it probably is impossible.

That is like me saying I will believe the resurrection once Christians can tell me what Jesus ate, and I mean exact, down to the finest detail, for each day of dis life from birth to crucifixion.

We do not even need abiogenesis to true, let alone known exactly, down to the finest detail, to establish how thought works.

Well, I can't help it I'm a very detailed science stickler, I have to be. I could never get away with any ambiguity in my job.

I think it would be sufficient for you to meet Christ. Maybe He could allow you to peer into time to see it, who knows.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Well, I can't help it I'm a very detailed science stickler, I have to be. I could never get away with any ambiguity in my job.

I think it would be sufficient for you to meet Christ. Maybe He could allow you to peer into time to see it, who knows.
[I assume by "meet Christ" you mean in a spiritual sense, rather than going back in time to talk to the guy]

For opposed opinions you demand unreasonably high levels of detail, whilst for your own claims you set the bar very very low.

This is called confirmation bias.
 

Furion

Well-known member
[I assume by "meet Christ" you mean in a spiritual sense, rather than going back in time to talk to the guy]

For opposed opinions you demand unreasonably high levels of detail, whilst for your own claims you set the bar very very low.

This is called confirmation bias.
Is there a preferable way you would like to meet your maker?

Your responsibility, if you want to call it that, is to come to terms with your universe without God.

The level of specificity you require is up to you.

I required specificity from God, and specificity from science.

You do you, and take your judgement of me and cram it into your dark hole. (That's the tat from your tit)
 

Furion

Well-known member
Watch it, James. This guy brags about reporting people. He monitors behavior like Homeland Security monitors metal.
Oh boy, that's an utterly miserable way to live life. Church lady with no church. Interesting how blind some people are to their own behavior.
 
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