What is meant by being in Christ?

brightfame52

Well-known member
Read the verse and forget your theology

Romans 16:7 (KJV 1900)
7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
That verse is not about election in Rom 16. All who believe were Chosen in union with Christ before the foundation. Ephesians 1 4
 

TomFL

Well-known member
That verse is not about election in Rom 16. All who believe were Chosen in union with Christ before the foundation. Ephesians 1 4
Then you have a problem for those two should have been included in the election you claimed before the foundation of the earth with Paul

but they were in Christ before Paul
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Then you have a problem for those two should have been included in the election you claimed before the foundation of the earth with Paul

but they were in Christ before Paul
No you have the problem. Rom 16 is not about election but conversion in time. All that is implied is that some people were Believers before Paul.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
No you have the problem. Rom 16 is not about election but conversion in time. All that is implied is that some people were Believers before Paul.
sorry but Election is in Christ and those two were in Christ before Paul

And the Ephesians were shown to not be in Christ for a period of the life

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900)
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

So men were not in Christ in eternity but in time
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
sorry but Election is in Christ and those two were in Christ before Paul

And the Ephesians were shown to not be in Christ for a period of the life

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900)
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

So men were not in Christ in eternity but in time
Election in Christ took place when according to Ephesians 1 4?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Election in Christ took place when according to Ephesians 1 4?
Are you saying your way to harmonize the two verses is to say there are two "in Christs"? If so, can you define the two and explain the scripture your definitions come from?
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
Election in Christ took place when according to Ephesians 1 4?
Eph 1:4 does not address individuals

sorry but Election is in Christ and those two were in Christ before Paul

And the Ephesians were shown to not be in Christ for a period of the life

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900)
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

So men were not in Christ in eternity but in time

and are in Christ when they believe

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Are you saying your way to harmonize the two verses is to say there are two "in Christs"? If so, can you define the two and explain the scripture your definitions come from?
I already answered this. So when were people Chosen in Christ according to Eph 1 4?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I already answered this. So when were people Chosen in Christ according to Eph 1 4?
No individuals were chosen in Christ at Eph 1:4

The church collectively was

Ephesians 2:12 (KJV 1900)
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
No individuals were chosen in Christ at Eph 1:4

The church collectively was

Ephesians 2:12 (KJV 1900)
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Yes many individuals were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Yes many individuals were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world!
Nope

Ephesians 2:12 (KJV 1900)
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

can't be chosen in Christ if you are not in Christ
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I already answered this. So when were people Chosen in Christ according to Eph 1 4?
Ok, you must have answered it for someone else.
But I can say this.They were chosen when they were in Christ and it was known before the foundation.
God knew who would be in Christ and and from the foundation He chose those. Another way to say it is that since Christ was chosen, all those in Him became chosen
 

TomFL

Well-known member
They were chosen when they were in Christ and it was known before the foundation.
God knew who would be in Christ and and from the foundation He chose those. Another way to say it is that since Christ was chosen, all those in Him became chosen
Yes And of course they were in Christ in time
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nope

Ephesians 2:12 (KJV 1900)
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

can't be chosen in Christ if you are not in Christ
Yes election is of individuals , individuals chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Those folks in Eph 2 12 were in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The Calvinist idea that we were in Christ before we were born is hard to grasp. What would that mean? A pre-existence?
What was meant when it was written that levi paid tithes while in the loins of Abraham? Heb 7 9 10

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
Is that concept hard to grasp? Does that mean a pre-existing Levi?
 

Sketo

Well-known member
What is meant by being in Christ?

Our union with Christ is not realized until, by the grace of God, we repent of our sin and exercise faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8–10). Through faith in Christ we come to experience a spiritual union with Him wherein we participate in His life, death, resurrection and ascension (Colossians 2:12; Romans 6:5; Ephesians 2:6).
28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord." - 1 Corinthians 1:28-31

who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, - 2 Timothy 1:9

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. - 1 Corinthians 15:10

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, - Ephesians 2:8
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
What was meant when it was written that levi paid tithes while in the loins of Abraham? Heb 7 9 10

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
Is that concept hard to grasp? Does that mean a pre-existing Levi
Did you notice the phrase in Heb 7 "so to speak"? It means that there was some sense in which it could be said that Levi received tithes in Abraham, not that Levi was present in Abraham and actually received tithes. Perhaps this idea is parallel to your verse about being in Christ before the foundation. If so you would be saying that "in Christ" is metaphor?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Yes election is of individuals , individuals chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Those folks in Eph 2 12 were in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world.
Sorry but that is not what it states

Eph. 2:12 —ESV
“remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.”

It says they were without Christ not in Christ

They did not become in Christ until they believed

Eph. 1:13 —ESV
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spiri”
 
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