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TomFL
Guest
It didn't yet exist
Yet God chose it to be that way when it did
Yet God chose it to be that way when it did
brightfame52
Well-known member
Thats like saying Christ didn't exist before the foundation of the world ! So that's error. The Church with its members existed in Christ , He chose them in Him, you need to take that up with God. Eph 1:4
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TomFL
Guest
Sorry that is simply untrue Christ is eternal. The church was formed in time and could only exist in God's foreknowledge
brightfame52
Well-known member
The Church is One with Christ, so they were eternally in Him.
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TomFL
Guest
brightfame52
Well-known member
And before time. Grace was given the Church in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9
9 who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
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TomFL
Guest
Again collectively in the church
Individual men become partaker in association with the church - the body of Christ
brightfame52
Well-known member
Strawman, The Church is a collection of Individuals !
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TomFL
Guest
No. scripture
Men enter into the church upon faith
Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
Theo1689
Well-known member
Eph. 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Notice that WE "have been predestinated".
It's not our "inheritance" that has been predestinated, or our future expectations which have been predestinated.
WE have been predestinated.
Predestinated according to what?
According to our "faith"? Nope.
According to our "foreseen faith"? Nope.
According to GOD'S purpose.
And the purpose of predestination is to what?
To work all things according to how we choose to believe? Nope.
According to the counsel of GOD's will.
Eph. 1:12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
Our hope in Christ is for praising HIS glory.
That is why we were "predestined", NOT "because we chose to have faith".
Eph. 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
So when we heard the word of truth, we believed (that faith being GIVEN to us as a GIFT of God, Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1), we were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
There's absolutely NOTHING here that goes against Reformed (ie. Biblical) theology.
1) We were predestined;
2) We heard the gospel;
3) We hoped/believed;
4) We were sealed.
brightfame52
Well-known member
lol, its a strawman because a collection of people is nothing less than a collection of individuals. A collection of individuals were Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world[His Body the Church]. And actually those in Eph 1 13 had been part of that collection. In fact, thats the only ones who shall believe the Gospel of their Salvation, the Chosen in Christ before the foundation, both jew and gentiles !
brightfame52
Well-known member
Theo
Exactly, the elect are sealed after believing the truth, that implies ownership and security from apostacy from the truth. Thats why after conversion by the Gospel, Jesus could say Matt 24
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Exactly, the elect are sealed after believing the truth, that implies ownership and security from apostacy from the truth. Thats why after conversion by the Gospel, Jesus could say Matt 24
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
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TomFL
Guest
Who is the we
and what were they predestined to
The we is the faithful in Christ not unconditionally selected men
We don't read unconditionally selected men were predestined to believe or to be irresistibly saved
instead we read the faithful in Christ are predestined to
Eph. 1:5 —KJV
“Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,”
adoption as children
not a word there about unconditional election to salvation
or about infused faith anywhere in the passage