What is Messianic Judaism

[Kade Rystalmane]

For those who don't really know what that means, perhaps someone who is a Messianic Jew or knows a lot about them could post up some unique identifiers of the belief system.

 

[SteveB]

For those who don't really know what that means, perhaps someone who is a Messianic Jew or knows a lot about them could post up some unique identifiers of the belief system.

Well, in my experience and background, a Messianic Jew is simply a Jewish person who believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah of Israel.
He is the fulfillment of the old testament prophecies from Genesis to Malachi.

Which is what non-Jewish Jesus followers believe.....

There may indeed be cultural practices which differ, but in general, it's that simple.

And those cultural practices which differ from gentile Jesus followers are the Hebrew biblical festivals, which are held every year.

 

[Beloved]

This is from Jewish Voice

We believe the Bible, composed of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and the Brit Hadashah (New Testament), is the only infallible and authoritative Word of God.
2 Timothy 3:15-17, Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19-21, Hebrews 4:2, Ephesians 6:17
God Is One

We believe God is One (echad), as declared in the Shema, the core Jewish prayer drawn from Deuteronomy 6:4-9. The word echad means “a united one” or “compound unity”; this compound unity is eternally existent in three co-equal, indivisible persons – God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit.
Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 48:16-17, 1 John 5:7-13
Yeshua (Jesus) is God

We believe that Jesus is the Messiah (Yeshua HaMashiach), God Himself in the form of man. We believe He was miraculously born from a virgin as Scripture prophesied, and that His virgin birth was to be a sign to Israel of His Messiahship.
Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6-7, Matthew 1:22-23
Jesus’ Miraculous Life

We believe Yeshua demonstrated his Messiahship through many miracles during his earthly ministry – and that He continues to do miracles for that same purpose today. We believe in His bodily resurrection, His future return for His followers, both living and dead, and the future establishment of His reign on Earth.
Isaiah 53:8-11, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Isaiah 9:6-7, 1 Corinthians 11:26, Zechariah 12:6-10, Zechariah 14:16-21
Forgiven by God’s Grace

We believe in Yeshua’s sacrificial death as our atonement. We believe that the only means of being forgiven of our sin is through the mercy and unearned, undeserved favor of our loving heavenly Father. We believe that individual salvation comes solely through by faith in the shed blood of Yeshua, the Lamb of God who paid the price for our sin through His perfect life and self-giving death.
Leviticus 17:11, Ephesians 2:8, Romans 1:17, Habakkuk 2:4,John 3:3, Hebrews 11:6,Genesis 15:6
Ruach HaKodesh (The Holy Spirit)

We believe that the Ruach HaKodesh dwells within Believers, convicting, comforting, teaching and empowering Believers to live a life pleasing to God.
Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 14:15-17, Galatians 5:13-25
Resurrection

We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; the saved to everlasting life and the lost to eternal separation from God and a state of everlasting punishment.
Daniel 12:2, Matthew 25:46, Psalm 69:28, Revelation 20:12-15
Jewish Heritage

We believe the Jews according to the flesh (descendants of Abraham through Isaac, whether through the blood line of the mother or the father) who place their faith in Israel’s Messiah Yeshua have not disowned or separated themselves from their race and Judaic heritage, but remain sons and daughters of Israel. Gentiles who place their faith in Israel’s Messiah Yeshua also become spiritual sons and daughters of Abraham.
Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 2:28-29, Genesis 15:6
Jewish Followers of Yeshua

We believe Jewish followers of Yeshua are called to maintain their Jewish biblical heritage and remain part of the Jewish people in addition to functioning as part of the universal body of Believers, the Church. This is part of our identity and a witness to the faithfulness of God.
Romans 3:1-4, 1 Corinthians 7:17-20, Acts 21:20-24
New Covenant Body of Believers

We believe the New Covenant body of Believers consists of both Jews and Gentiles who have accepted Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus the Messiah) as the promised Redeemer. We believe that the “middle wall of partition,” which in times past separated Jews and Gentiles, has been demolished and the enmity between them is eliminated by the Messiah Yeshua.
Ephesians 2:12-14, Acts 10:34, 1 Corinthians 12:13, Hebrews 10:25, Ephesians 3:6, 10-12

Messianic Jews searched for the truth and found it. IMO Their love for God jumps out in their postings and God's love for His people shouts out even stronger. Also IMO. For the most part out country loves them and prays they will come to the truth. There may just be a remnant but it is a large remnant that the LORD GOD will come for.

 

[SteveB]

Looks pretty much like what I as a gentile follower of Jesus believes.

 

[Jewjitzu]

For those who don't really know what that means, perhaps someone who is a Messianic Jew or knows a lot about them could post up some unique identifiers of the belief system.

It's just a marketing term used to evangelize to traditional Jews.

Messianic Jews are just Jewish apostates. They keep Rabbinical laws like wearing kippah's, lighting Shabbat candles, and biblical commandments like tallit, tzitzit, etc., just to appear Jewish in order to evangelize.

 

[SteveB]

It's just a marketing term used to evangelize to traditional Jews.

Messianic Jews are just Jewish apostates. They keep Rabbinical laws like wearing kippah's, lighting Shabbat candles, and biblical commandments like tallit, tzitzit, etc., just to appear Jewish in order to evangelize.

So, the Hope of Israel isn't a Messiah to establish the Kingdom of God on earth, thus fulfilling the promises of God to the fathers: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

 

[Jewjitzu]

So, the Hope of Israel isn't a Messiah to establish the Kingdom of God on earth, thus fulfilling the promises of God to the fathers: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

The hope of Israel isn't just narrowly focused on a man, non-divine messiah, but in the culmination of God's promises and deliverance.

 

[SteveB]

The hope of Israel isn't just narrowly focused on a man, non-divine messiah, but in the culmination of God's promises and deliverance.

Indeed.
I never said anything about a non-divine Messiah.

 

[Jewjitzu]

Indeed.
I never said anything about a non-divine Messiah.

We don't believe in a divine messiah. I'm clarifying the differences.

 

[SteveB]

We don't believe in a divine messiah. I'm clarifying the differences.

Interesting.

Looks to me that the Messiah is Divine.
An orthodox rabbi, who is also a religious historian at Berkeley university wrote a great book about it.

He was real clear.

Or, are you going to tell me that no true Jew would believe that?

 

[Jewjitzu]

Interesting.

Yes.

Looks to me that the Messiah is Divine.
An orthodox rabbi, who is also a religious historian at Berkeley university wrote a great book about it.

Then he ain't Orthodox. What book would that be? Lots of nuts coming out of Cal Berkley.

He was real clear.

And he ain't Orthodox. That's pretty clear.

Or, are you going to tell me that no true Jew would believe that?

That's about right. Jesus didn't believe it either.

 

[SteveB]

Yes.


Then he ain't Orthodox. What book would that be? Lots of nuts coming out of Cal Berkley.

vpfluke's review of The Jewish Gospels : the story of the Jewish Christ by Daniel Boyarin

★★★★ "For Daniel Boyarin, Jesus Christ is fundamentally Jewish, and did not set out to establish a new religion. The thought of Jesus was not a break from current Judaism. Boyarin tries to flip our undestanidng of son of man vs son of God. He argues that 'Son of God' was given to a number of...

www.librarything.com

And he ain't Orthodox. That's pretty clear.

So, the only ones who are orthodox are the ones you approve?

That's about right. Jesus didn't believe it either.

Well, we are warned that there are many people who proclaim a different Jesus.

Daniel 7 makes it quite clear that the Son of Man is a Divine, and treated as such by the Ancient of Days.

 

[Jewjitzu]

vpfluke's review of The Jewish Gospels : the story of the Jewish Christ by Daniel Boyarin

★★★★ "For Daniel Boyarin, Jesus Christ is fundamentally Jewish, and did not set out to establish a new religion. The thought of Jesus was not a break from current Judaism. Boyarin tries to flip our undestanidng of son of man vs son of God. He argues that 'Son of God' was given to a number of...

www.librarything.com

If anything, it looks like this book is trying to dispel the beliefs of Christianity today versus the original thinking of who he was. But, I haven't read it.

So, the only ones who are orthodox are the ones you approve?

Don't you and other Christians claim who true Christians are, excluding JWs, Mormons, Catholics, Moonies, etc., and the like?

Even your references say nothing of him being an Orthodox Jew.

Well, we are warned that there are many people who proclaim a different Jesus.

And Tanakh warns that God is not a man, nor is there a God the son.

Daniel 7 makes it quite clear that the Son of Man is a Divine, and treated as such by the Ancient of Days.

Daniel 7 makes clear the Ancient of Days is not the son of man. Nothing is said of the son of man being divine, other than a review? Why make up stuff? Have you read the book?

 

[SteveB]

If anything, it looks like this book is trying to dispel the beliefs of Christianity today versus the original thinking of who he was. But, I haven't read it.

If anything.... you haven't actually read it.....

Interesting.
Read it and then let's talk about it.

Don't you and other Christians claim who true Christians are, excluding JWs, Mormons, Catholics, Moonies, etc., and the like?

Nope.

The bible does!

Doesn't the Father of a family define who their own children are?

Even your references say nothing of him being an Orthodox Jew.

Not using your terminology.
His teachings are pretty clear, and tie back to the law and prophets and writings.

Mat 5:17-20 WEB 17 “Don’t think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever shall break one of these least commandments and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Looks pretty orthodox to me.

Mat 15:2-12 WEB 2 “Why do your disciples disobey the tradition of the elders? For they don’t wash their hands when they eat bread.” 3 He answered them, “Why do you also disobey the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever may tell his father or his mother, “Whatever help you might otherwise have gotten from me is a gift devoted to God,” 6 he shall not honor his father or mother.’ You have made the commandment of God void because of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 8 ‘These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 And they worship me in vain, teaching as doctrine rules made by men.’” 10 He summoned the multitude, and said to them, “Hear, and understand. 11 That which enters into the mouth doesn’t defile the man; but that which proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.” 12 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

This too looks quite orthodox to me!

He does exactly what David said matters.

Psa 138:2 WEB I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your Name for your loving kindness and for your truth; for you have exalted your Name and your Word above all.

And Tanakh warns that God is not a man, nor is there a God the son.

Really?
Proverbs looks pretty clear.

Pro 30:1-6 WEB 1 The words of Agur the son of Jakeh; the revelation: the man says to Ithiel, to Ithiel and Ucal: 2 “Surely I am the most ignorant man, and don’t have a man’s understanding. 3 I have not learned wisdom, neither do I have the knowledge of the Holy One. 4 Who has ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in his garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if you know? 5 “Every word of God is flawless. He is a shield to those who take refuge in him. 6 Don’t you add to his words, lest he reprove you, and you be found a liar.

Daniel 7 makes clear the Ancient of Days is not the son of man.

I never said anything about the Ancient of Days being the Son of Man.
The Ancient of Days hands authority of his Kingdom over to the Son of Man.

Dan 7:13-14 WEB 13 “I saw in the night visions, and behold, there came with the clouds of the sky one like a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 Dominion was given him, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which will not pass away, and his kingdom one that which will not be destroyed.

Looks exactly like what is written in the gospels and Philippians 2

Mat 28:18 WEB Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.

Phi 2:5-11 WEB 5 Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Exactly as Isaiah tells us

Isa 45:23 WEB I have sworn by myself. The word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and will not be revoked, that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath.

Nothing is said of the son of man being divine, other than a review? Why make up stuff? Have you read the book?

Yes. I did read the book. I enjoyed it quite immensely.

 

[Jewjitzu]

If anything.... you haven't actually read it.....

Have you read it? I really don't care to.

Interesting.
Read it and then let's talk about it.

Not going to happen. You can read it.

Nope.

The bible does!

The Bible doesn't talk about Christians, at least Tanakh doesn't.

Doesn't the Father of a family define who their own children are?

What? What does this have to do with anything?

Not using your terminology.

Then he's not an Orthodox Jew. He would have stated he was.

His teachings are pretty clear, and tie back to the law and prophets and writings.

Lot's of people say that.

Mat 5:17-20 WEB 17 “Don’t think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever shall break one of these least commandments and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Looks pretty orthodox to me.

Sounds like it, but then Orthodoxy involves practicing and teaching others the same. Teaching abrogation, eating unclean foods, eating foods of idols, not following the rulings of the Rabbi's in accordance to Deut 17:8-13, adding the requirements for sinless witnesses for cases of adultery, etc., doesn't sound like Orthodoxy to me.

Mat 15:2-12 WEB 2 “Why do your disciples disobey the tradition of the elders? For they don’t wash their hands when they eat bread.” 3 He answered them, “Why do you also disobey the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever may tell his father or his mother, “Whatever help you might otherwise have gotten from me is a gift devoted to God,” 6 he shall not honor his father or mother.’ You have made the commandment of God void because of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 8 ‘These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 And they worship me in vain, teaching as doctrine rules made by men.’” 10 He summoned the multitude, and said to them, “Hear, and understand. 11 That which enters into the mouth doesn’t defile the man; but that which proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.” 12 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

Yep, the NT says a lot of things. Mixing Saduccees with Pharisees, etc.

This too looks quite orthodox to me!

Looks are deceiving. I bet you think Paul was Orthodox too?

He does exactly what David said matters.

Psa 138:2 WEB I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your Name for your loving kindness and for your truth; for you have exalted your Name and your Word above all.

Yep, Orthodox Jews do the same. Now are you talking about Jesus or your author?

BTW, there's no need to capitalize word when its not a pronoun.

Really?
Proverbs looks pretty clear.

Pro 30:1-6 WEB 1 The words of Agur the son of Jakeh; the revelation: the man says to Ithiel, to Ithiel and Ucal: 2 “Surely I am the most ignorant man, and don’t have a man’s understanding. 3 I have not learned wisdom, neither do I have the knowledge of the Holy One. 4 Who has ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in his garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if you know? 5 “Every word of God is flawless. He is a shield to those who take refuge in him. 6 Don’t you add to his words, lest he reprove you, and you be found a liar.

Yep, where does it say the son of man is divine? It doesn't.

I never said anything about the Ancient of Days being the Son of Man.

Great, then you know the son of man isn't eternal.

The Ancient of Days hands authority of his Kingdom over to the Son of Man.

Which doesn't make him divine or eternal.

Dan 7:13-14 WEB 13 “I saw in the night visions, and behold, there came with the clouds of the sky one like a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 Dominion was given him, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which will not pass away, and his kingdom one that which will not be destroyed.

Beautiful!

Looks exactly like what is written in the gospels and Philippians 2

Mat 28:18 WEB Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.

Phi 2:5-11 WEB 5 Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Yep, the NT says a lot.

Exactly as Isaiah tells us

Isa 45:23 WEB I have sworn by myself. The word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and will not be revoked, that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath.

Yes, people now to God.

Yes. I did read the book. I enjoyed it quite immensely.

Wonderful. So where does Daniel Boyarin say he's an Orthodox Jew?

 

[SteveB]

An excellent video on the importance of gaining an eternal perspective.

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[SteveB]

Have you read it? I really don't care to.

Pity. I thought it was a great book.
For claiming to be a lover of YHVH, I'm surprised that you're not interested in learning.

Not going to happen. You can read it.

Read it years ago. Not long after it came out.

The Bible doesn't talk about Christians, at least Tanakh doesn't.

Not using that word, but Jesus followers are referenced in Isaiah.

Isa 65:15 WEB You will leave your name for a curse to my chosen; and the Lord Yahweh will kill you. He will call his servants by another name,

What? What does this have to do with anything?

Considering that your complaint is that

Don't you and other Christians claim who true Christians are, excluding JWs, Mormons, Catholics, Moonies, etc., and the like?

Jesus was quite clear about this,

Mat 12:48-50 WEB 48 But he answered him who spoke to him, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?” 49 He stretched out his hand toward his disciples, and said, “Behold, my mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

Even YHVH knows exactly who are his own.

Num 16:5 LXXE And he spoke to Core and all his assembly, saying, God has visited and known those that are his and who are holy, and has brought them to himself; and whom he has chosen for himself, he has brought to himself.

So, it seems strikes me that He and he alone reserves sole right to define who belong to Him.

Then he's not an Orthodox Jew. He would have stated he was.

The only people who need to state they're orthodox are those who feel they have to prove something that God already knows about them.
He does after all say--

Isa 64:6 WEB For we have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteousness is like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Thus, what value is it to claim a superior position, when He himself tells us that he gives us His own righteousness, and our righteousness is as a menstrual rag?

Isa 54:17 WEB No weapon that is formed against you will prevail; and you will condemn every tongue that rises against you in judgment. This is the heritage of Yahweh’s servants, and their righteousness is of me,” says Yahweh.

Lot's of people say that.

I wouldn't know what "lots of people say."
I do know that I can see for myself, and read for myself that the teachings of Jesus tie back to the Law and prophets.

He even iterates as much when talking to the religious leaders and lawyers of his day. I find their silence curious. If what you're saying is true, then they never would've allowed this to pass without a response.

Mat 22:34-40 WEB 34 But the Pharisees, when they heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, gathered themselves together. 35 One of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, testing him. 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?” 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 A second likewise is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

Sounds like it, but then Orthodoxy involves practicing and teaching others the same. Teaching abrogation, eating unclean foods, eating foods of idols, not following the rulings of the Rabbi's in accordance to Deut 17:8-13, adding the requirements for sinless witnesses for cases of adultery, etc., doesn't sound like Orthodoxy to me.

Rather curious how much value you place on the rulings of the rabbis, but ignore the commandments of God, and use the words of men to build your fear of God on.

Even Isaiah had something to say about this.


Mat 15:3-11 WEB 3 He answered them, “Why do you also disobey the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever may tell his father or his mother, “Whatever help you might otherwise have gotten from me is a gift devoted to God,” 6 he shall not honor his father or mother.’ You have made the commandment of God void because of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 8 ‘These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 And they worship me in vain, teaching as doctrine rules made by men.’” 10 He summoned the multitude, and said to them, “Hear, and understand. 11 That which enters into the mouth doesn’t defile the man; but that which proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.”

Yep, the NT says a lot of things. Mixing Saduccees with Pharisees, etc.

Reading through the descriptions of the saduccees, and pharisees, it looks quite clear who each are.

Looks are deceiving. I bet you think Paul was Orthodox too?

He indeed started as such.

Phi 3:3-10 WEB 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh; 4 though I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If any other man thinks that he has confidence in the flesh, I yet more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the assembly; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, found blameless. 7 However, I consider those things that were gain to me as a loss for Christ. 8 Yes most certainly, and I count all things to be a loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and count them nothing but refuse, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith, 10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death,

Yep, Orthodox Jews do the same. Now are you talking about Jesus or your author?

Jesus. That's clearly who the author was quoting.

BTW, there's no need to capitalize word when its not a pronoun.

As nouns are capitalized when they are persons, places, and things, and YHVH's Word is a noun, I'm good here.

Yep, where does it say the son of man is divine? It doesn't.

Rather interesting how it says that the Kingdom given to the Son of Man is an everlasting Kingdom. Furthermore, in Isaiah 9 we read

Isa 9:6-7 WEB 6 For a child is born to us. A son is given to us; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, on David’s throne, and on his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from that time on, even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of Armies will perform this.

And in Isaiah 11 we see attributes that belong only to YHVH as being His.

Isa 11:1-5 WEB 1 A shoot will come out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots will bear fruit. 2 Yahweh’s Spirit will rest on him: the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Yahweh. 3 His delight will be in the fear of Yahweh. He will not judge by the sight of his eyes, neither decide by the hearing of his ears; 4 but he will judge the poor with righteousness, and decide with equity for the humble of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips he will kill the wicked. 5 Righteousness will be the belt of his waist, and faithfulness the belt of his waist.

So, it seems pretty clear to me that the Son of Man is indeed divine.

Great, then you know the son of man isn't eternal.

From what I previously provided from the prophet Isaiah, I'd say he is indeed eternal.

Which doesn't make him divine or eternal.

That'd be a whole lot easier to believe if there wasn't so much in the law and prophets that show he is eternal, and divine.

Beautiful!

Agreed! Incredibly so!

Yep, the NT says a lot.

Indeed it does. I find it curious how much it references the law, prophets and writings. It's not a far reach at all to consider the idea that it's an extension of the Hebrew bible.

Yes, people now to God.

Now? Or bow?

Wonderful. So where does Daniel Boyarin say he's an Orthodox Jew?

I thought so.
You'll have to read the book to find out.

 

[Jewjitzu]

Pity. I thought it was a great book.
For claiming to be a lover of YHVH, I'm surprised that you're not interested in learning.

Pity, you don't know me well.

Not using that word, but Jesus followers are referenced in Isaiah.

That's funny. Christians nor followers of Messiah are called out.

Isa 65:15 WEB You will leave your name for a curse to my chosen; and the Lord Yahweh will kill you. He will call his servants by another name,

Yes, beautiful. Read v9. It's not

Jesus was quite clear about this,

Mat 12:48-50 WEB 48 But he answered him who spoke to him, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?” 49 He stretched out his hand toward his disciples, and said, “Behold, my mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

Even YHVH knows exactly who are his own

Yes, and Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Jeremiah 33 are explicit who.

Num 16:5 LXXE And he spoke to Core and all his assembly, saying, God has visited and known those that are his and who are holy, and has brought them to himself; and whom he has chosen for himself, he has brought to himself.

So, it seems strikes me that He and he alone reserves sole right to define who belong to Him.

Yes, see above. Then read Isaiah 56:1-8.

The only people who need to state they're orthodox are those who feel they have to prove something that God already knows about them.
He does after all say--

No, it's a way of knowing the basics beliefs of people.

Isa 64:6 WEB For we have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteousness is like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Yes, and yet he's faithful to Israel.

Thus, what value is it to claim a superior position, when He himself tells us that he gives us His own righteousness, and our righteousness is as a menstrual rag?

We only claim the righteousness that is in the law, as a result of following the law, Ezekiel 18, God's law, not mine.

Isa 54:17 WEB No weapon that is formed against you will prevail; and you will condemn every tongue that rises against you in judgment. This is the heritage of Yahweh’s servants, and their righteousness is of me,” says Yahweh.

And we see who the servants are above, and throughout Isaiah. Read what Jeremiah 33 says:

23Moreover, the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: 24“Have you not noticed what these people are saying: ‘The LORD has rejected the two families He had chosen’? So they despise My people and no longer regard them as a nation. 25This is what the LORD says: If I have not established My covenant with the day and the night and the fixed order of heaven and earth, 26then I would also reject the descendants of Jacob and of My servant David, so as not to take from his descendants rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will restore them from captivityg and will have compassion on them.”

I wouldn't know what "lots of people say."
I do know that I can see for myself, and read for myself that the teachings of Jesus tie back to the Law and prophets.

Then he shouldn't have taught Paul what he abrogates in Romans and Galatians. Rotfl...

He even iterates as much when talking to the religious leaders and lawyers of his day. I find their silence curious. If what you're saying is true, then they never would've allowed this to pass without a response.

You really don't understand I don't hold the NT authoritative. I don't believe the accounts.

Mat 22:34-40 WEB 34 But the Pharisees, when they heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, gathered themselves together. 35 One of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, testing him. 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?” 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 A second likewise is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

Yes, the shema is foundational to Judaism.

Rather curious how much value you place on the rulings of the rabbis, but ignore the commandments of God, and use the words of men to build your fear of God on.

Really? And yet you follow Jesus' rulings, a mortal man who bled and died, and worship him as god. How idolatrous is that?

Even Isaiah had something to say about this.

Isaiah says a lot.

Mat 15:3-11 WEB 3 He answered them, “Why do you also disobey the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever may tell his father or his mother, “Whatever help you might otherwise have gotten from me is a gift devoted to God,” 6 he shall not honor his father or mother.’ You have made the commandment of God void because of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 8 ‘These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 And they worship me in vain, teaching as doctrine rules made by men.’” 10 He summoned the multitude, and said to them, “Hear, and understand. 11 That which enters into the mouth doesn’t defile the man; but that which proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.”

And yet he breaks Leviticus 11 and teaches Paul the same. Traditions of pagan non-Jews.

Reading through the descriptions of the saduccees, and pharisees, it looks quite clear who each are.

It is clear they are mixed up.

He indeed started as such.

Phi 3:3-10 WEB

Rotfl... abrogator of the law, teacher of unrighteousness.

7 However, I consider those things that were gain to me as a loss for Christ....

We suffer for God, not man.

Jesus. That's clearly who the author was quoting.

Then not authoritative. We already the Tanakh. We don't need his add ons.

As nouns are capitalized when they are persons, places, and things, and YHVH's Word is a noun, I'm good here.

God's word is all lower case in Tanakh, and never a person. Why fool yourself?

Rather interesting how it says that the Kingdom given to the Son of Man is an everlasting Kingdom. Furthermore, in Isaiah 9 we read

Isa 9:6-7 WEB

Beautiful! This refers to Hezekiah.

And in Isaiah 11 we see attributes that belong only to YHVH as being His.

Isa 11:1-5 WEB 1 A shoot will come out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots will bear fruit. 2 Yahweh’s Spirit will rest on him: the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Yahweh....

Actually, God doesn't fear Himself. So, you're fooling yourself again. This is a merely a man, following Ezekiel 36:26-27, Zechariah 7:12. Created in God's image, as all humans.

So, it seems pretty clear to me that the Son of Man is indeed divine.

Still zero support.

From what I previously provided from the prophet Isaiah, I'd say he is indeed eternal.

What you provided proved otherwise.

That'd be a whole lot easier to believe if there wasn't so much in the law and prophets that show he is eternal, and divine.

Nothing shows that. You want to try again?

Indeed it does. I find it curious how much it references the law, prophets and writings. It's not a far reach at all to consider the idea that it's an extension of the Hebrew bible.

Sorry, it ain't.

Now? Or bow?

Bow, typo using an android. That should have been obvious.

I thought so.
You'll have to read the book to find out.

Not worth it.

 

[Jewjitzu]

An excellent video on the importance of gaining an eternal perspective.

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Thank you. I'll disregard it.

 

[sk0rpi0n]

This is from Jewish Voice

We believe the Bible, composed of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and the Brit Hadashah (New Testament), is the only infallible and authoritative Word of God.
2 Timothy 3:15-17, Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19-21, Hebrews 4:2, Ephesians 6:17
God Is One

We believe God is One (echad), as declared in the Shema, the core Jewish prayer drawn from Deuteronomy 6:4-9. The word echad means “a united one” or “compound unity”; this compound unity is eternally existent in three co-equal, indivisible persons – God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit.
Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 48:16-17, 1 John 5:7-13
Yeshua (Jesus) is God

We believe that Jesus is the Messiah (Yeshua HaMashiach), God Himself in the form of man. We believe He was miraculously born from a virgin as Scripture prophesied, and that His virgin birth was to be a sign to Israel of His Messiahship.
Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6-7, Matthew 1:22-23
Jesus’ Miraculous Life

We believe Yeshua demonstrated his Messiahship through many miracles during his earthly ministry – and that He continues to do miracles for that same purpose today. We believe in His bodily resurrection, His future return for His followers, both living and dead, and the future establishment of His reign on Earth.
Isaiah 53:8-11, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Isaiah 9:6-7, 1 Corinthians 11:26, Zechariah 12:6-10, Zechariah 14:16-21
Forgiven by God’s Grace

We believe in Yeshua’s sacrificial death as our atonement. We believe that the only means of being forgiven of our sin is through the mercy and unearned, undeserved favor of our loving heavenly Father. We believe that individual salvation comes solely through by faith in the shed blood of Yeshua, the Lamb of God who paid the price for our sin through His perfect life and self-giving death.
Leviticus 17:11, Ephesians 2:8, Romans 1:17, Habakkuk 2:4,John 3:3, Hebrews 11:6,Genesis 15:6
Ruach HaKodesh (The Holy Spirit)

We believe that the Ruach HaKodesh dwells within Believers, convicting, comforting, teaching and empowering Believers to live a life pleasing to God.
Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 14:15-17, Galatians 5:13-25
Resurrection

We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; the saved to everlasting life and the lost to eternal separation from God and a state of everlasting punishment.
Daniel 12:2, Matthew 25:46, Psalm 69:28, Revelation 20:12-15
Jewish Heritage

We believe the Jews according to the flesh (descendants of Abraham through Isaac, whether through the blood line of the mother or the father) who place their faith in Israel’s Messiah Yeshua have not disowned or separated themselves from their race and Judaic heritage, but remain sons and daughters of Israel. Gentiles who place their faith in Israel’s Messiah Yeshua also become spiritual sons and daughters of Abraham.
Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 2:28-29, Genesis 15:6
Jewish Followers of Yeshua

We believe Jewish followers of Yeshua are called to maintain their Jewish biblical heritage and remain part of the Jewish people in addition to functioning as part of the universal body of Believers, the Church. This is part of our identity and a witness to the faithfulness of God.
Romans 3:1-4, 1 Corinthians 7:17-20, Acts 21:20-24
New Covenant Body of Believers

We believe the New Covenant body of Believers consists of both Jews and Gentiles who have accepted Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus the Messiah) as the promised Redeemer. We believe that the “middle wall of partition,” which in times past separated Jews and Gentiles, has been demolished and the enmity between them is eliminated by the Messiah Yeshua.
Ephesians 2:12-14, Acts 10:34, 1 Corinthians 12:13, Hebrews 10:25, Ephesians 3:6, 10-12

Messianic Jews searched for the truth and found it. IMO Their love for God jumps out in their postings and God's love for His people shouts out even stronger. Also IMO. For the most part out country loves them and prays they will come to the truth. There may just be a remnant but it is a large remnant that the LORD GOD will come for.

Wait a minute. That sounds exactly like Christianity but with Hebrew terms and names.