Kade Rystalmane
Well-known member
For those who don't really know what that means, perhaps someone who is a Messianic Jew or knows a lot about them could post up some unique identifiers of the belief system.
Well, in my experience and background, a Messianic Jew is simply a Jewish person who believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah of Israel.For those who don't really know what that means, perhaps someone who is a Messianic Jew or knows a lot about them could post up some unique identifiers of the belief system.
It's just a marketing term used to evangelize to traditional Jews.For those who don't really know what that means, perhaps someone who is a Messianic Jew or knows a lot about them could post up some unique identifiers of the belief system.
So, the Hope of Israel isn't a Messiah to establish the Kingdom of God on earth, thus fulfilling the promises of God to the fathers: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?It's just a marketing term used to evangelize to traditional Jews.
Messianic Jews are just Jewish apostates. They keep Rabbinical laws like wearing kippah's, lighting Shabbat candles, and biblical commandments like tallit, tzitzit, etc., just to appear Jewish in order to evangelize.
The hope of Israel isn't just narrowly focused on a man, non-divine messiah, but in the culmination of God's promises and deliverance.So, the Hope of Israel isn't a Messiah to establish the Kingdom of God on earth, thus fulfilling the promises of God to the fathers: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?
Indeed.The hope of Israel isn't just narrowly focused on a man, non-divine messiah, but in the culmination of God's promises and deliverance.
We don't believe in a divine messiah. I'm clarifying the differences.Indeed.
I never said anything about a non-divine Messiah.
Interesting.We don't believe in a divine messiah. I'm clarifying the differences.
Yes.Interesting.
Then he ain't Orthodox. What book would that be? Lots of nuts coming out of Cal Berkley.Looks to me that the Messiah is Divine.
An orthodox rabbi, who is also a religious historian at Berkeley university wrote a great book about it.
And he ain't Orthodox. That's pretty clear.He was real clear.
That's about right. Jesus didn't believe it either.Or, are you going to tell me that no true Jew would believe that?
Yes.
Then he ain't Orthodox. What book would that be? Lots of nuts coming out of Cal Berkley.
So, the only ones who are orthodox are the ones you approve?And he ain't Orthodox. That's pretty clear.
Well, we are warned that there are many people who proclaim a different Jesus.That's about right. Jesus didn't believe it either.
If anything, it looks like this book is trying to dispel the beliefs of Christianity today versus the original thinking of who he was. But, I haven't read it.![]()
vpfluke's review of The Jewish Gospels : the story of the Jewish Christ by Daniel Boyarin
★★★★ "For Daniel Boyarin, Jesus Christ is fundamentally Jewish, and did not set out to establish a new religion. The thought of Jesus was not a break from current Judaism. Boyarin tries to flip our undestanidng of son of man vs son of God. He argues that 'Son of God' was given to a number of...www.librarything.com
Don't you and other Christians claim who true Christians are, excluding JWs, Mormons, Catholics, Moonies, etc., and the like?So, the only ones who are orthodox are the ones you approve?
And Tanakh warns that God is not a man, nor is there a God the son.Well, we are warned that there are many people who proclaim a different Jesus.
Daniel 7 makes clear the Ancient of Days is not the son of man. Nothing is said of the son of man being divine, other than a review? Why make up stuff? Have you read the book?Daniel 7 makes it quite clear that the Son of Man is a Divine, and treated as such by the Ancient of Days.
If anything.... you haven't actually read it.....If anything, it looks like this book is trying to dispel the beliefs of Christianity today versus the original thinking of who he was. But, I haven't read it.
Nope.Don't you and other Christians claim who true Christians are, excluding JWs, Mormons, Catholics, Moonies, etc., and the like?
Not using your terminology.Even your references say nothing of him being an Orthodox Jew.
Really?And Tanakh warns that God is not a man, nor is there a God the son.
I never said anything about the Ancient of Days being the Son of Man.Daniel 7 makes clear the Ancient of Days is not the son of man.
Yes. I did read the book. I enjoyed it quite immensely.Nothing is said of the son of man being divine, other than a review? Why make up stuff? Have you read the book?
Have you read it? I really don't care to.If anything.... you haven't actually read it.....
Not going to happen. You can read it.Interesting.
Read it and then let's talk about it.
The Bible doesn't talk about Christians, at least Tanakh doesn't.Nope.
The bible does!
What? What does this have to do with anything?Doesn't the Father of a family define who their own children are?
Then he's not an Orthodox Jew. He would have stated he was.Not using your terminology.
Lot's of people say that.His teachings are pretty clear, and tie back to the law and prophets and writings.
Sounds like it, but then Orthodoxy involves practicing and teaching others the same. Teaching abrogation, eating unclean foods, eating foods of idols, not following the rulings of the Rabbi's in accordance to Deut 17:8-13, adding the requirements for sinless witnesses for cases of adultery, etc., doesn't sound like Orthodoxy to me.Mat 5:17-20 WEB 17 “Don’t think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever shall break one of these least commandments and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Looks pretty orthodox to me.
Yep, the NT says a lot of things. Mixing Saduccees with Pharisees, etc.Mat 15:2-12 WEB 2 “Why do your disciples disobey the tradition of the elders? For they don’t wash their hands when they eat bread.” 3 He answered them, “Why do you also disobey the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever may tell his father or his mother, “Whatever help you might otherwise have gotten from me is a gift devoted to God,” 6 he shall not honor his father or mother.’ You have made the commandment of God void because of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 8 ‘These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 And they worship me in vain, teaching as doctrine rules made by men.’” 10 He summoned the multitude, and said to them, “Hear, and understand. 11 That which enters into the mouth doesn’t defile the man; but that which proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.” 12 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”
Looks are deceiving. I bet you think Paul was Orthodox too?This too looks quite orthodox to me!
Yep, Orthodox Jews do the same. Now are you talking about Jesus or your author?He does exactly what David said matters.
Psa 138:2 WEB I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your Name for your loving kindness and for your truth; for you have exalted your Name and your Word above all.
Yep, where does it say the son of man is divine? It doesn't.Really?
Proverbs looks pretty clear.
Pro 30:1-6 WEB 1 The words of Agur the son of Jakeh; the revelation: the man says to Ithiel, to Ithiel and Ucal: 2 “Surely I am the most ignorant man, and don’t have a man’s understanding. 3 I have not learned wisdom, neither do I have the knowledge of the Holy One. 4 Who has ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in his garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if you know? 5 “Every word of God is flawless. He is a shield to those who take refuge in him. 6 Don’t you add to his words, lest he reprove you, and you be found a liar.
Great, then you know the son of man isn't eternal.I never said anything about the Ancient of Days being the Son of Man.
Which doesn't make him divine or eternal.The Ancient of Days hands authority of his Kingdom over to the Son of Man.
Beautiful!Dan 7:13-14 WEB 13 “I saw in the night visions, and behold, there came with the clouds of the sky one like a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 Dominion was given him, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which will not pass away, and his kingdom one that which will not be destroyed.
Yep, the NT says a lot.Looks exactly like what is written in the gospels and Philippians 2
Mat 28:18 WEB Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.
Phi 2:5-11 WEB 5 Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Yes, people now to God.Exactly as Isaiah tells us
Isa 45:23 WEB I have sworn by myself. The word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and will not be revoked, that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath.
Wonderful. So where does Daniel Boyarin say he's an Orthodox Jew?Yes. I did read the book. I enjoyed it quite immensely.
Pity. I thought it was a great book.Have you read it? I really don't care to.
Read it years ago. Not long after it came out.Not going to happen. You can read it.
Not using that word, but Jesus followers are referenced in Isaiah.The Bible doesn't talk about Christians, at least Tanakh doesn't.
Considering that your complaint is thatWhat? What does this have to do with anything?
Jesus was quite clear about this,Don't you and other Christians claim who true Christians are, excluding JWs, Mormons, Catholics, Moonies, etc., and the like?
The only people who need to state they're orthodox are those who feel they have to prove something that God already knows about them.Then he's not an Orthodox Jew. He would have stated he was.
I wouldn't know what "lots of people say."Lot's of people say that.
Sounds like it, but then Orthodoxy involves practicing and teaching others the same. Teaching abrogation, eating unclean foods, eating foods of idols, not following the rulings of the Rabbi's in accordance to Deut 17:8-13, adding the requirements for sinless witnesses for cases of adultery, etc., doesn't sound like Orthodoxy to me.
Reading through the descriptions of the saduccees, and pharisees, it looks quite clear who each are.Yep, the NT says a lot of things. Mixing Saduccees with Pharisees, etc.
He indeed started as such.Looks are deceiving. I bet you think Paul was Orthodox too?
Jesus. That's clearly who the author was quoting.Yep, Orthodox Jews do the same. Now are you talking about Jesus or your author?
As nouns are capitalized when they are persons, places, and things, and YHVH's Word is a noun, I'm good here.BTW, there's no need to capitalize word when its not a pronoun.
Rather interesting how it says that the Kingdom given to the Son of Man is an everlasting Kingdom. Furthermore, in Isaiah 9 we readYep, where does it say the son of man is divine? It doesn't.
From what I previously provided from the prophet Isaiah, I'd say he is indeed eternal.Great, then you know the son of man isn't eternal.
That'd be a whole lot easier to believe if there wasn't so much in the law and prophets that show he is eternal, and divine.Which doesn't make him divine or eternal.
Agreed! Incredibly so!Beautiful!
Indeed it does. I find it curious how much it references the law, prophets and writings. It's not a far reach at all to consider the idea that it's an extension of the Hebrew bible.Yep, the NT says a lot.
Now? Or bow?Yes, people now to God.
I thought so.Wonderful. So where does Daniel Boyarin say he's an Orthodox Jew?
Pity, you don't know me well.Pity. I thought it was a great book.
For claiming to be a lover of YHVH, I'm surprised that you're not interested in learning.
That's funny. Christians nor followers of Messiah are called out.Not using that word, but Jesus followers are referenced in Isaiah.
Yes, beautiful. Read v9. It's notIsa 65:15 WEB You will leave your name for a curse to my chosen; and the Lord Yahweh will kill you. He will call his servants by another name,
Yes, and Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Jeremiah 33 are explicit who.Jesus was quite clear about this,
Mat 12:48-50 WEB 48 But he answered him who spoke to him, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?” 49 He stretched out his hand toward his disciples, and said, “Behold, my mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.”
Even YHVH knows exactly who are his own
Yes, see above. Then read Isaiah 56:1-8.Num 16:5 LXXE And he spoke to Core and all his assembly, saying, God has visited and known those that are his and who are holy, and has brought them to himself; and whom he has chosen for himself, he has brought to himself.
So, it seems strikes me that He and he alone reserves sole right to define who belong to Him.
No, it's a way of knowing the basics beliefs of people.The only people who need to state they're orthodox are those who feel they have to prove something that God already knows about them.
He does after all say--
Yes, and yet he's faithful to Israel.Isa 64:6 WEB For we have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteousness is like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
We only claim the righteousness that is in the law, as a result of following the law, Ezekiel 18, God's law, not mine.Thus, what value is it to claim a superior position, when He himself tells us that he gives us His own righteousness, and our righteousness is as a menstrual rag?
And we see who the servants are above, and throughout Isaiah. Read what Jeremiah 33 says:Isa 54:17 WEB No weapon that is formed against you will prevail; and you will condemn every tongue that rises against you in judgment. This is the heritage of Yahweh’s servants, and their righteousness is of me,” says Yahweh.
Then he shouldn't have taught Paul what he abrogates in Romans and Galatians. Rotfl...I wouldn't know what "lots of people say."
I do know that I can see for myself, and read for myself that the teachings of Jesus tie back to the Law and prophets.
You really don't understand I don't hold the NT authoritative. I don't believe the accounts.He even iterates as much when talking to the religious leaders and lawyers of his day. I find their silence curious. If what you're saying is true, then they never would've allowed this to pass without a response.
Yes, the shema is foundational to Judaism.Mat 22:34-40 WEB 34 But the Pharisees, when they heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, gathered themselves together. 35 One of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, testing him. 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?” 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 A second likewise is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”
Really? And yet you follow Jesus' rulings, a mortal man who bled and died, and worship him as god. How idolatrous is that?Rather curious how much value you place on the rulings of the rabbis, but ignore the commandments of God, and use the words of men to build your fear of God on.
Isaiah says a lot.Even Isaiah had something to say about this.
And yet he breaks Leviticus 11 and teaches Paul the same. Traditions of pagan non-Jews.Mat 15:3-11 WEB 3 He answered them, “Why do you also disobey the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever may tell his father or his mother, “Whatever help you might otherwise have gotten from me is a gift devoted to God,” 6 he shall not honor his father or mother.’ You have made the commandment of God void because of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 8 ‘These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 And they worship me in vain, teaching as doctrine rules made by men.’” 10 He summoned the multitude, and said to them, “Hear, and understand. 11 That which enters into the mouth doesn’t defile the man; but that which proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.”
It is clear they are mixed up.Reading through the descriptions of the saduccees, and pharisees, it looks quite clear who each are.
Rotfl... abrogator of the law, teacher of unrighteousness.He indeed started as such.
Phi 3:3-10 WEB
We suffer for God, not man.7 However, I consider those things that were gain to me as a loss for Christ....
Then not authoritative. We already the Tanakh. We don't need his add ons.Jesus. That's clearly who the author was quoting.
God's word is all lower case in Tanakh, and never a person. Why fool yourself?As nouns are capitalized when they are persons, places, and things, and YHVH's Word is a noun, I'm good here.
Beautiful! This refers to Hezekiah.Rather interesting how it says that the Kingdom given to the Son of Man is an everlasting Kingdom. Furthermore, in Isaiah 9 we read
Isa 9:6-7 WEB
Actually, God doesn't fear Himself. So, you're fooling yourself again. This is a merely a man, following Ezekiel 36:26-27, Zechariah 7:12. Created in God's image, as all humans.And in Isaiah 11 we see attributes that belong only to YHVH as being His.
Isa 11:1-5 WEB 1 A shoot will come out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots will bear fruit. 2 Yahweh’s Spirit will rest on him: the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Yahweh....
Still zero support.So, it seems pretty clear to me that the Son of Man is indeed divine.
What you provided proved otherwise.From what I previously provided from the prophet Isaiah, I'd say he is indeed eternal.
Nothing shows that. You want to try again?That'd be a whole lot easier to believe if there wasn't so much in the law and prophets that show he is eternal, and divine.
Sorry, it ain't.Indeed it does. I find it curious how much it references the law, prophets and writings. It's not a far reach at all to consider the idea that it's an extension of the Hebrew bible.
Bow, typo using an android. That should have been obvious.Now? Or bow?
Not worth it.I thought so.
You'll have to read the book to find out.
Thank you. I'll disregard it.An excellent video on the importance of gaining an eternal perspective.
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ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry - Death Life & the HOPE of the Resurrection - Gospel film | Facebook | By ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry | We’ve made this new evangelistic video tackling the darkest taboo of them all: DEATH. In the last few years of crisis after cr
131K views, 1.5K likes, 652 loves, 264 comments, 973 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry: We’ve made this new evangelistic video tackling the darkest taboo of them all: DEATH....fb.watch
This is from Jewish Voice
We believe the Bible, composed of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and the Brit Hadashah (New Testament), is the only infallible and authoritative Word of God.
2 Timothy 3:15-17, Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19-21, Hebrews 4:2, Ephesians 6:17
God Is One
We believe God is One (echad), as declared in the Shema, the core Jewish prayer drawn from Deuteronomy 6:4-9. The word echad means “a united one” or “compound unity”; this compound unity is eternally existent in three co-equal, indivisible persons – God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit.
Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 48:16-17, 1 John 5:7-13
Yeshua (Jesus) is God
We believe that Jesus is the Messiah (Yeshua HaMashiach), God Himself in the form of man. We believe He was miraculously born from a virgin as Scripture prophesied, and that His virgin birth was to be a sign to Israel of His Messiahship.
Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6-7, Matthew 1:22-23
Jesus’ Miraculous Life
We believe Yeshua demonstrated his Messiahship through many miracles during his earthly ministry – and that He continues to do miracles for that same purpose today. We believe in His bodily resurrection, His future return for His followers, both living and dead, and the future establishment of His reign on Earth.
Isaiah 53:8-11, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Isaiah 9:6-7, 1 Corinthians 11:26, Zechariah 12:6-10, Zechariah 14:16-21
Forgiven by God’s Grace
We believe in Yeshua’s sacrificial death as our atonement. We believe that the only means of being forgiven of our sin is through the mercy and unearned, undeserved favor of our loving heavenly Father. We believe that individual salvation comes solely through by faith in the shed blood of Yeshua, the Lamb of God who paid the price for our sin through His perfect life and self-giving death.
Leviticus 17:11, Ephesians 2:8, Romans 1:17, Habakkuk 2:4,John 3:3, Hebrews 11:6,Genesis 15:6
Ruach HaKodesh (The Holy Spirit)
We believe that the Ruach HaKodesh dwells within Believers, convicting, comforting, teaching and empowering Believers to live a life pleasing to God.
Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 14:15-17, Galatians 5:13-25
Resurrection
We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; the saved to everlasting life and the lost to eternal separation from God and a state of everlasting punishment.
Daniel 12:2, Matthew 25:46, Psalm 69:28, Revelation 20:12-15
Jewish Heritage
We believe the Jews according to the flesh (descendants of Abraham through Isaac, whether through the blood line of the mother or the father) who place their faith in Israel’s Messiah Yeshua have not disowned or separated themselves from their race and Judaic heritage, but remain sons and daughters of Israel. Gentiles who place their faith in Israel’s Messiah Yeshua also become spiritual sons and daughters of Abraham.
Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 2:28-29, Genesis 15:6
Jewish Followers of Yeshua
We believe Jewish followers of Yeshua are called to maintain their Jewish biblical heritage and remain part of the Jewish people in addition to functioning as part of the universal body of Believers, the Church. This is part of our identity and a witness to the faithfulness of God.
Romans 3:1-4, 1 Corinthians 7:17-20, Acts 21:20-24
New Covenant Body of Believers
We believe the New Covenant body of Believers consists of both Jews and Gentiles who have accepted Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus the Messiah) as the promised Redeemer. We believe that the “middle wall of partition,” which in times past separated Jews and Gentiles, has been demolished and the enmity between them is eliminated by the Messiah Yeshua.
Ephesians 2:12-14, Acts 10:34, 1 Corinthians 12:13, Hebrews 10:25, Ephesians 3:6, 10-12
Messianic Jews searched for the truth and found it. IMO Their love for God jumps out in their postings and God's love for His people shouts out even stronger. Also IMO. For the most part out country loves them and prays they will come to the truth. There may just be a remnant but it is a large remnant that the LORD GOD will come for.