What is Messianic Judaism

Open Heart

Well-known member
Uh, no...let's try this again. Your comment was, "Virgins don't get pregnant." I was explaining to you that virgins can and do get pregnant. Of course I wouldn't have ever dreamed that I would need to explain that I didn't think Mary went to her local Nazareth fertility clinic and got IVF.
Let me qualify my statement: 2000 years ago, virgins did not get pregnant.
 

Rachel Redux

Active member
Let me qualify my statement: 2000 years ago, virgins did not get pregnant.
Sorry...you can't claim to believe Almighty God created the universe but couldn't miraculously implant one tiny embryo in a young maiden (maidens are virgins).
Also, where was the married woman and sperm when Adam & Eve were created?
You won't answer...you'll give another off topic reply or just ignore me.
 

Rachel Redux

Active member
Let me qualify my statement: 2000 years ago, virgins did not get pregnant.
Sorry...you can't claim to believe Almighty God created the universe but couldn't miraculously implant one tiny embryo in a young maiden (maidens are virgins).
Also, where was the married woman and sperm when Adam & Eve were created?
You won't answer...you'll give another off topic reply or ignore me.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Sorry...you can't claim to believe Almighty God created the universe but couldn't miraculously implant one tiny embryo in a young maiden (maidens are virgins).
Also, where was the married woman and sperm when Adam & Eve were created?
You won't answer...you'll give another off topic reply or just ignore me.
Sorry, but there is a default position -- if a baby is born, it's because a man and a woman had sex. You can say, "well but modern medicine..." But modern medicine still combines egg with sperm, meaning there is still a father. If you want to say that a baby was born apart from this, it is up to you to show why the case is exceptional.

Adam and Eve are not historical people. They are mythic (and that is not a slam -- myth is one of the most powerful forms of literature I can think of).

Human beings evolved from lower hominids, which evolved from apes, which evovled from primates, and so on, going on back to pond scum. There was never an instance where a human being is formed from just an egg without a sperm.

99.9% of Eukaryotes reproduce sexually. So sex has been around for at least a billion years, if not 2 billion years.
 

Rachel Redux

Active member
Sorry, but there is a default position -- if a baby is born, it's because a man and a woman had sex. You can say, "well but modern medicine..." But modern medicine still combines egg with sperm, meaning there is still a father. If you want to say that a baby was born apart from this, it is up to you to show why the case is exceptional.
You don't think God is exceptional?
Adam and Eve are not historical people. They are mythic (and that is not a slam -- myth is one of the most powerful forms of literature I can think of).

Human beings evolved from lower hominids, which evolved from apes, which evovled from primates, and so on, going on back to pond scum. There was never an instance where a human being is formed from just an egg without a sperm.

99.9% of Eukaryotes reproduce sexually. So sex has been around for at least a billion years, if not 2 billion years.
You just called yourself pond scum. Who am I to argue?
 
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Harel13

Active member


So, the only ones who are orthodox are the ones you approve?


Well, we are warned that there are many people who proclaim a different Jesus.

Daniel 7 makes it quite clear that the Son of Man is a Divine, and treated as such by the Ancient of Days.
Hah! Boyarin isn't Orthodox, that's well-known. Sure, he describes himself as such, but what Orthodox person goes on to get a degree at the JTS, an inherently Conservative institution? "Orthodox", give me a break.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
You don't think God is exceptional?
Of course he is. But arguing that a virgin birth was required or even initiated by God is ridiculous. As I showed you previously, even IVF requires human sperm. And in the case of a descendant of David, physical DNA is required. God isn't physical nor has DNA.

You just called yourself pond scum. Who am I to argue?
No, she didn't. But since the Big Bang originated the Universe by God's command, why are surprised that guided evolution isn't a credible idea?

Sperm and ovum isn't the most prestigious origins either.
 

American Gothic

Active member
How did Sarah conceive? was it God's doing? was Isaac a creation of God?
Are human conceptions always accidents of chance or always God's doing?

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Adam was not conceived or born and is considered a Son of God and also a human
a descendant of human is considered a Son of Adam (Man)
in Gen 6 and Enoch there are made hybrid beings of Sons of God and daughters of Men

would a person who is both a son of Man and a special deliberate creation/son of God
be impossible for God?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Hah! Boyarin isn't Orthodox, that's well-known. Sure, he describes himself as such, but what Orthodox person goes on to get a degree at the JTS, an inherently Conservative institution? "Orthodox", give me a break.
Take your complaint up with Daniel.
Especially when YHVH has explicitly stated that he hates people who are inciting quarrels between brothers.

From the Chabad Tanakh.

16There are six things that the Lord hates, and the seventh is an abomination of His soul; 17Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood; 18a heart that thinks thoughts of violence; feet that hasten to run to evil; 19[one who] speaks lies with false testimony and incites quarrels among brothers.

so, instead of telling me that, go talk to Daniel Boyarin about it.

I'm sure that he'd appreciate being told your views about him.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Take your complaint up with Daniel.
Especially when YHVH has explicitly stated that he hates people who are inciting quarrels between brothers.

From the Chabad Tanakh.

16There are six things that the Lord hates, and the seventh is an abomination of His soul; 17Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood; 18a heart that thinks thoughts of violence; feet that hasten to run to evil; 19[one who] speaks lies with false testimony and incites quarrels among brothers.

so, instead of telling me that, go talk to Daniel Boyarin about it.

I'm sure that he'd appreciate being told your views about him.
Daniel isn't orthodox so there's no quarrel. Since you're not a brother, why do you care?
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
How did Sarah conceive? was it God's doing? was Isaac a creation of God?
Are human conceptions always accidents of chance or always God's doing?
Abraham impregnated Sarah. He previously impregnated Hagar.

Adam was not conceived or born and is considered a Son of God and also a human
a descendant of human is considered a Son of Adam (Man)
The word Adam means mankind, man, etc. All obedient to God are His sons. There's nothing divine about it.

in Gen 6 and Enoch there are made hybrid beings of Sons of God and daughters of Men
You're assuming mating with angels?

Sons of God, are rulers here.

would a person who is both a son of Man and a special deliberate creation/son of God
be impossible for God?
Impossible if the person is supposed to descend physically from the loins and seed of Abraham and David.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Why do you bring up Enoch? It's not in the Tanakh. Heck, its not even in the LXX which has the extra books. It is a nothing piece of writing, utterly insignificant.
He's been told this before. It's like quoting the Koran, Book of Morman, the NT, with Jews. It makes zero impact.
 

American Gothic

Active member
Why do you bring up Enoch? It's not in the Tanakh.
so what, this is the Messianic forum.
Just because it is extra Biblical doesn't mean by default is is not worth ones time or inquiry.
Talmud is just a piece of writing, I personally wouldn't just say insignificant out of hand.

Israel put the Dead Sea Scrolls on display as if they are something significant, even though only about
40% of the material is from the Hebrew scriptures.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
so what, this is the Messianic forum.
Just because it is extra Biblical doesn't mean by default is is not worth ones time or inquiry.
Talmud is just a piece of writing, I personally wouldn't just say insignificant out of hand.

Israel put the Dead Sea Scrolls on display as if they are something significant, even though only about
40% of the material is from the Hebrew scriptures.
So what? Messianic Jews don't accept enoch either.
 

American Gothic

Active member
Abraham impregnated Sarah. He previously impregnated Hagar.
So was Ishmael a creation of God, or not? are you?

the point is that there are personal beings who are direct creations of God
and then others that are less direct, but IMO still creations of God
Gen 6 Sons of God are angelic beings, not humans (sons of Adam)
there was plenty of significant history pre-Flood, and pre-Abraham as well
the Heavens and the Earth were not created for Humans, they were created for God

So what? Messianic Jews don't accept enoch either.
why do you treat Jewish thought as monolithic?
I know Jews who value Enoch
 
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Open Heart

Well-known member
why do you treat Jewish thought as monolithic?
I know Jews who value Enoch
I don't treat Jews as monolithic. But there are certain things all denominations of Judaism have in common -- the canon of the Tanakh, the Talmud... Enoch is not part of that. You might as well refer me to the vedas as to enoch.
 

American Gothic

Active member
I don't treat Jews as monolithic. But there are certain things all denominations of Judaism have in common -- the canon of the Tanakh, the Talmud... Enoch is not part of that. You might as well refer me to the vedas as to enoch.
I never said Enoch or other Jewish historical works are Scripture
a historical work doesn't have to be Scripture to be truthful history
true Scripture is only Truth, and it's history is Truth

you don't seem to believe all the history in Scripture, so what are you tripping over?
"In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth..."
pre-Abrahamic, is that true History? or did Everything unguided just create itself from nothing?
 
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Open Heart

Well-known member
I never said Enoch or other Jewish historical works are Scripture
a historical work doesn't have to be Scripture to be truthful history
true Scripture is only Truth, and it's history is Truth

you don't seem to believe all the history in Scripture, so what are you tripping over?
"In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth..."
pre-Abrahamic, is that true History? or did Everything unguided just create itself from nothing?
enoch is not a history book. it is apocalyptic literature.

I just find it VERY odd that several christians I know seem to get stuck on enoch, but they turn around and say Bible Only to catholics.
 
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