What is Messianic Judaism

American Gothic

Active member
Keep in mind that books have similar or the same names.
Yes, and there are Gnostic works with N/T Christianish elements etc.
but the Theology of those works is very different.
You can tell what lines up with Bible and what doesn't.

I reject your whole hog dismissal of Christian scholarship, :)
The Bible's overall uniformity thru Time is well known.
There are thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of
New Testament texts in museums and personal collections worldwide.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Yes, and there are Gnostic works with N/T Christianish elements etc.
but the Theology of those works is very different.
You can tell what lines up with Bible and what doesn't.

I reject your whole hog dismissal of Christian scholarship, :)
That's fine. Judaism has the authority to reject Christianity and all of its works. It's in the Torah and commanded. ;)

Our existence says a lot regarding Christian attitudes towards Israel, Torah, and Judaism. We are not going away, and with God's blessings:)

BTW, I like James Tabor and his scholarship on the human Jesus and the apostate Paul.

The Bible's overall uniformity thru Time is well known.
At least the Tanakh.

There are thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of
New Testament texts in museums and personal collections worldwide.
Yes. And that helps you how?
 
Last edited:

101G

Well-known member
Greeting, to all.

Messianic Judaism is the closest belief to the TRUTH that any of the Judism out there, I commend you, but there is only ONE Failling, that's if I understand you correctly. "compound unity".

this is where we separate, and with all other religious movements. God to us is a yachid, (only ONE, the H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah), who is the "ECHAD", a plurality of himself as the (H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem'), in ordinal designation, as Last, in Flesh to save us from our sin.

let me explain ourself. your compound unity is what we call "the EQUAL SHARE" of one's self, (here God), in flesh as the messiah or Christ. which is the ECHAD of God as First (Spirit), and Last, (flesh). so your compund unity is not the same as the "EQUAL SHARE" of oneself. a compound consist of TWO or More, well God is ONE, (yachid), but in the EQUAL SHARE", he is "ECHAD", not a part, but the same ONE, (yachid), shared in flesh, supportive scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.".

this sounds like your compound unity, (if i'm correct), of you Parts, the "LORD", part #1, is "WITH", the Last, part #2. this is the ERROR in Parts, because Isaiah 48:12 states, "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."

this is where the "ECHAD" of God is explained, and understood at in "SHARING", and not in "UNITY" of any kind of Compound, or parts.

so God as the yachid, (only ONE, the H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah) is the "EQUAL SHARE", with himself in flesh, a body. this is supportive of Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."

his own ARM, which is his "POWER", in Flesh as a man is supportive of Isaiah chapter 53. the POWER of God in Flesh. as in with, (in example in the bible), the the king of Assyria Sennacherib, with him was his "POWER", or "ARM of Flesh", his army. 2 Chronicles 32:8 "With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is the LORD our God to help us, and to fight our battles. And the people rested themselves upon the words of Hezekiah king of Judah."

so the ARM of God, (his own Power), is Jesus the Messiah, the Christ, (per Isaiah chapter 53), is God himself in flesh, the ..... "ARM of God", the Ordinal last.

So, God is ONE in a ECHAD of the SHARING of himself in flesh. not a compound unity of one in PARTS, but the EQUAL SHARE of his OWN SELF as ONE, in Ordinal designation, in BEGINNING, and END, or First and Last.

hope this helps, and if so open to discussion.

be blessed,

PICJAG, 101G.

PS, you all are on the right track as in plurality of one, but error in the mechanics of your doctrine. that's all.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Greeting, to all.

Messianic Judaism is the closest belief to the TRUTH that any of the Judism out there, I commend you, but there is only ONE Failling, that's if I understand you correctly. "compound unity".

this is where we separate, and with all other religious movements. God to us is a yachid, (only ONE, the H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah), who is the "ECHAD", a plurality of himself as the (H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem'), in ordinal designation, as Last, in Flesh to save us from our sin.

let me explain ourself. your compound unity is what we call "the EQUAL SHARE" of one's self, (here God), in flesh as the messiah or Christ. which is the ECHAD of God as First (Spirit), and Last, (flesh). so your compund unity is not the same as the "EQUAL SHARE" of oneself. a compound consist of TWO or More, well God is ONE, (yachid), but in the EQUAL SHARE", he is "ECHAD", not a part, but the same ONE, (yachid), shared in flesh, supportive scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.".
Equal share is less than one. It's basic math.

this sounds like your compound unity, (if i'm correct), of you Parts, the "LORD", part #1, is "WITH", the Last, part #2. this is the ERROR in Parts, because Isaiah 48:12 states, "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."
As explained previously, God is Eternal and through all generations, from the first and with the last of them. It's pretty simple.

this is where the "ECHAD" of God is explained, and understood at in "SHARING", and not in "UNITY" of any kind of Compound, or parts.
Sharing involves parts.

so God as the yachid, (only ONE, the H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah) is the "EQUAL SHARE", with himself in flesh, a body. this is supportive of Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."

his own ARM, which is his "POWER", in Flesh as a man is supportive of Isaiah chapter 53. the POWER of God in Flesh. as in with, (in example in the bible), the the king of Assyria Sennacherib, with him was his "POWER", or "ARM of Flesh", his army. 2 Chronicles 32:8 "With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is the LORD our God to help us, and to fight our battles. And the people rested themselves upon the words of Hezekiah king of Judah."
God is neither flesh, blood, nor human. Wrong again.

so the ARM of God, (his own Power), is Jesus the Messiah, the Christ, (per Isaiah chapter 53), is God himself in flesh, the ..... "ARM of God", the Ordinal last.

So, God is ONE in a ECHAD of the SHARING of himself in flesh. not a compound unity of one in PARTS, but the EQUAL SHARE of his OWN SELF as ONE, in Ordinal designation, in BEGINNING, and END, or First and Last.

hope this helps, and if so open to discussion.

be blessed,

PICJAG, 101G.

PS, you all are on the right track as in plurality of one, but error in the mechanics of your doctrine. that's all.
Wrong again, 101G.

Echad with respect to God is definitely meant as exclusively one, alone, as Malachi 2:10, Eccl 4:11, Deuteronomy 6:4-6.

Posting your refuted position into another forum doesn't change the facts.

As shown previously with your refusal to answer if the words sheep, fish, deer, are singular or plural, the answer remains it depends on context. The same point with the Hebrew word elohim. It depends on context. It is not translated as a plural for the God of Israel because He is alone, but false gods are in the plural.
 
Last edited:

101G

Well-known member
Equal share is less than one. It's basic math.
ERROR, a equal share is ANOTHER, as G243 Allos states, Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort

see, you don't God nor Math..... :eek: YIKES!.

do you know what a numerical difference is? .... no. nor what "Same Sort means?.... no.

my source for the definition G243 allos is the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

now go back and try to LEARN God, and Learn Math........ (smile). as said, HOW IGNORANT.

next.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

101G

Well-known member
It's weird Messianics would try to take their Style from Pharisaim, which hates them.
They should study the Essenes - their Theological forerunners in Messiah.
first thanks for the reply, second, what I ment by, "they are on the right track", is in God's plurality in the ECHAD of Himself. which I have not seen in any other jews, (that I have encountered). that I must commend them on. it takes a lot for a natural born and taught Jew to come to any conclusion that God is a plurality ...... of ONE. that I commend them on. but it just take a little encourgement, and the wisdom of God, (the TRUTH), for them to walk futher into the THINGS, and the KNOWLEDGE of Godd in the truth.

now on what you said, about, "taking their Style from Pharisaim", or the Pharisees, that's ok, because the apostle Paul was a Pharisee of Pharisees but was changed when he was enlighten by God. even today, my fellow brothers and sisters in Christianity, (and I love all of them), follow a trinity, or a oneness doctrine, or may be something else. many have changed when enlighten by God. so it's ok to believe in a ERROR at first, because when one encounter the truth by God then they can see clearly their mistakes. I speak from experience. as my motto is , "Where there is KNOWLEDGE, stay not Ignorant".

understand, we all are products of what we has been taught, but the Good news is, we don't have to stay, as this same "old" product. that's why I as with God believe in "BECOMING NEW". or NEW CREATIONS, or BORN AGAIN, not the same old product, but become a NEW product, or (creature) in Christ Jesus the Ordinal Last who is God himself shared in Flesh until the redemption of our old bodies upon his return.

yes, I'm a progressive, a. toward God, (before answering his call) and Now, "Born of HIM", a progressive b. in him. so I count no one out, it never over until he returns, so I preach Jesus Christ and him crucified, and any SOUND doctrine of HIM that is truth.

now as for, "they should study the Essenes - their Theological forerunners in Messiah". Good, but may I suggest they STUDY the Messiah himself.

we have the Gospels and his apostles epistles. and BETTER yet, we have HIM, God the Holy ONE, the Holy Spirit JESUS, the ALMIGHTY, who comfort us and guide us in all TRUTH. he as TEACHER, this is what we suggest they do.

again, thanks for the reply, and may God richly bless you.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

American Gothic

Active member
Jews, (that I have encountered)
now on what you said, about, "taking their Style from Pharisaim"
a number of Messianics are not ethnically Jewish, but Gentiles who get interested in the Jewishishness of their Faith
that is great, but the Jewish root of their Christian faith doesn't lie in Pharisaism

it's not a Theological criticism if their Theology is NT sound - I commend sound doctrine
and not really a criticism, per say because of course consider them Brethren
 
Last edited:

101G

Well-known member
a number of Messianics are not ethnically Jewish, but Gentiles who get interested in the Jewishishness of their Faith
that is great, but the Jewish root of their Christian faith doesn't lie in Pharisaism
well who is a JEW? we as Christians and Jew, we speak Spiritually, lets see, Romans 2:28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:"
Romans 2:29 "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

those are the TRUE JEWS, ... which are of God. for, Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

PICJAG, 101G.
 

American Gothic

Active member
well who is a JEW? we as Christians and Jew, we speak Spiritually, lets see, Romans 2:28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:"
Romans 2:29 "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

those are the TRUE JEWS, ... which are of God. for, Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

PICJAG, 101G.
anyone in Jesus is a child of Abraham, by Faith...and heirs of the Promise (of Faith)

however, there is more to "Jewishness" than just the spiritual
and there are Physical promises made to the actual Jewish people that are not made with Gentiles
the Church is Jewish and Gentile believers in Jesus together in a new reality
 

101G

Well-known member
Do you think that verse gets misused, outside of it's actual intent?
yes, a many time, see there is only one true JEW, (Spiritual), listen, Romans 9:8 "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

you're on point.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

American Gothic

Active member
yes, a many time, see there is only one true JEW, (Spiritual), listen, Romans 9:8 "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
there is Physical Israel itself (Jews), and then some of them are the Israel of God (spiritual Jews of Faith)
Gentiles in Messiah are spiritual Gentiles, also people of God thru Faith
 

101G

Well-known member
there is Physical Israel itself (Jews), and then some of them are the Israel of God (spiritual Jews of Faith)
Gentiles in Messiah are spiritual Gentiles, also people of God thru Faith
yes, if your FAITH in God by JESUS the Christ, then "SONS" of God, without reguard to gender, or nationality. for we are all one in Christ.

now as for natural Jews of the flesh, Revelation 2:9 "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."

Revelation 3:9 "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."

this is why Romans 9:8 was written, "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

see, anyone of the flesh jews or gentiles .... Naturally BORN are of the synagogue of Satan. be ye jew or Gentile, either you're in Christ, or Satan.

this is why all, Jews, and Gentiles ... must be .... have to be...... "BORN AGAIN" .... of GOD. there is no other way.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

101G

Well-known member
but there will be physical Jews who become believers in Jesus after the Church is gone...
they will not be the Church, nor any Synagogue of Satan
they will be the main Witness for Messiah at that Time
first, thanks for the reply, secod, I was away from the computer, sorry for the Late resposne. but to your question, "but there will be physical Jews who become believers in Jesus after the Church is gone". yes, there will be some Jews who will become believers in Jesus, but one thing, where is the CHURCH going?

PICJAG, 101G.
 
Last edited:
Top