What Is Romans 9 Really About?

Sketo

Well-known member
The context of Romans 9 is Romans 8! If you separate them you will have a partial truth and come to a wrong conclusion.


Rom 9 is an explanation for why the word of God has not failed even though God’s chosen people, Israel, as a whole, are not turning to Christ and being saved. The sovereignty of God’s grace is brought in as the final ground of God’s faithfulness in spite of Israel’s failure, and therefore as the deepest foundation for the precious promises of Romans 8. For if God is not faithful to his word, we can’t count on Romans 8 either.

Verse 3 shows us that Israel as a whole is accursed and cut off from Christ, "I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh." Only notice now that this is the plight of Israel: "accursed and cut off from Christ." Now that raises a huge problem! What about the word of God – the word of promise to Israel and covenant: "I will be your God, and you will be my people!" (Jer. 31:33).

So Paul answers this question in verse 6: "But it is not as though the word of God has failed." You can see what was at stake. It looks as though the word of God has failed! But Paul says no. Then he gives the explanation that launches him into the doctrines of unconditional election and divine sovereignty over human willing. His explanation in verse 6b is: "For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel." Not all physical Israel is true Israel. In other words, the word of God has not failed because the promises were not made to all ethnic Israel in such a way that secured the salvation of every individual Israelite.

Verse 8 says it again: "It is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants." In other words, not all the physical descendants of Abraham are the beneficiaries of the covenant promises. Who then is? And here Paul goes right to the bottom of the explanation. He says, The beneficiaries of the promise are the children of promise. But, we ask, who are these? What are the conditions they must meet to be the "children of promise"?

Paul’s answer to this in verse 11, with the illustrations of Jacob and Esau, confronts us with the ultimate sovereignty of God in choosing who the beneficiaries of the promise will be. In referring to Jacob (who became the heir) and Esau (who did not) Paul says: "for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad [there’s the unconditionality, and here’s the reason for it], so that God's purpose according to election would stand [there’s the explanation deeper than human conditions – God’s sovereign purpose], not because of works but because of Him who calls [notice: he did not contrast works with faith, but with "Him who calls" – not even faith is in view here as a condition], Rebecca was told, "The older will serve the younger."

All this raises the question of God’s justice. Paul is hiding nothing here. He is putting it all out in the open. In verse 14 he says, "What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part?" Paul’s answer is no. And after quoting Moses about God’s freedom to have mercy on who he has mercy (v. 15) he repeats the absolute unconditionality of being chosen by God to be a child of promise. Verse 16: “So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."

Which leads, then, to the question in verse 19, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" Those are the questions we are confronted with in this chapter. Are all Israel the "children of promise" or only some? If only some, what makes one person a child of promise and another not? If it is ultimately God’s unconditional, free, sovereign electing mercy, then is he unjust? If he is that free to have mercy on whom he wills and harden whom he wills (v. 18), and if it does not depend on man who wills or man who runs (v. 16) then, why does he still find fault?



So you can see that the issue of divine election, and human will, and God’s justice, and human blame, and God’s sovereignty are all here in this chapter. But they are not here for their own sake. They are here to explain this burning question: How can God’s elect people, Israel, be accursed and cut off from Christ if the word of God is reliable? How can verse 6a be true: "But it is not as though the word of God has failed." That’s the issue in this chapter.
 

JDS

Well-known member
The context of Romans 9 is Romans 8! If you separate them you will have a partial truth and come to a wrong conclusion.


Rom 9 is an explanation for why the word of God has not failed even though God’s chosen people, Israel, as a whole, are not turning to Christ and being saved. The sovereignty of God’s grace is brought in as the final ground of God’s faithfulness in spite of Israel’s failure, and therefore as the deepest foundation for the precious promises of Romans 8. For if God is not faithful to his word, we can’t count on Romans 8 either.

Verse 3 shows us that Israel as a whole is accursed and cut off from Christ, "I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh." Only notice now that this is the plight of Israel: "accursed and cut off from Christ." Now that raises a huge problem! What about the word of God – the word of promise to Israel and covenant: "I will be your God, and you will be my people!" (Jer. 31:33).

So Paul answers this question in verse 6: "But it is not as though the word of God has failed." You can see what was at stake. It looks as though the word of God has failed! But Paul says no. Then he gives the explanation that launches him into the doctrines of unconditional election and divine sovereignty over human willing. His explanation in verse 6b is: "For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel." Not all physical Israel is true Israel. In other words, the word of God has not failed because the promises were not made to all ethnic Israel in such a way that secured the salvation of every individual Israelite.

Verse 8 says it again: "It is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants." In other words, not all the physical descendants of Abraham are the beneficiaries of the covenant promises. Who then is? And here Paul goes right to the bottom of the explanation. He says, The beneficiaries of the promise are the children of promise. But, we ask, who are these? What are the conditions they must meet to be the "children of promise"?

Paul’s answer to this in verse 11, with the illustrations of Jacob and Esau, confronts us with the ultimate sovereignty of God in choosing who the beneficiaries of the promise will be. In referring to Jacob (who became the heir) and Esau (who did not) Paul says: "for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad [there’s the unconditionality, and here’s the reason for it], so that God's purpose according to election would stand [there’s the explanation deeper than human conditions – God’s sovereign purpose], not because of works but because of Him who calls [notice: he did not contrast works with faith, but with "Him who calls" – not even faith is in view here as a condition], Rebecca was told, "The older will serve the younger."

All this raises the question of God’s justice. Paul is hiding nothing here. He is putting it all out in the open. In verse 14 he says, "What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part?" Paul’s answer is no. And after quoting Moses about God’s freedom to have mercy on who he has mercy (v. 15) he repeats the absolute unconditionality of being chosen by God to be a child of promise. Verse 16: “So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."

Which leads, then, to the question in verse 19, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" Those are the questions we are confronted with in this chapter. Are all Israel the "children of promise" or only some? If only some, what makes one person a child of promise and another not? If it is ultimately God’s unconditional, free, sovereign electing mercy, then is he unjust? If he is that free to have mercy on whom he wills and harden whom he wills (v. 18), and if it does not depend on man who wills or man who runs (v. 16) then, why does he still find fault?



So you can see that the issue of divine election, and human will, and God’s justice, and human blame, and God’s sovereignty are all here in this chapter. But they are not here for their own sake. They are here to explain this burning question: How can God’s elect people, Israel, be accursed and cut off from Christ if the word of God is reliable? How can verse 6a be true: "But it is not as though the word of God has failed." That’s the issue in this chapter.
Here is a one word answer to the question in the op.

"Israel"
 
T

TomFL

Guest
The context of Romans 9 is Romans 8! If you separate them you will have a partial truth and come to a wrong conclusion.


Rom 9 is an explanation for why the word of God has not failed even though God’s chosen people, Israel, as a whole, are not turning to Christ and being saved. The sovereignty of God’s grace is brought in as the final ground of God’s faithfulness in spite of Israel’s failure, and therefore as the deepest foundation for the precious promises of Romans 8. For if God is not faithful to his word, we can’t count on Romans 8 either.

Verse 3 shows us that Israel as a whole is accursed and cut off from Christ, "I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh." Only notice now that this is the plight of Israel: "accursed and cut off from Christ." Now that raises a huge problem! What about the word of God – the word of promise to Israel and covenant: "I will be your God, and you will be my people!" (Jer. 31:33).

So Paul answers this question in verse 6: "But it is not as though the word of God has failed." You can see what was at stake. It looks as though the word of God has failed! But Paul says no. Then he gives the explanation that launches him into the doctrines of unconditional election and divine sovereignty over human willing. His explanation in verse 6b is: "For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel." Not all physical Israel is true Israel. In other words, the word of God has not failed because the promises were not made to all ethnic Israel in such a way that secured the salvation of every individual Israelite.

Verse 8 says it again: "It is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants." In other words, not all the physical descendants of Abraham are the beneficiaries of the covenant promises. Who then is? And here Paul goes right to the bottom of the explanation. He says, The beneficiaries of the promise are the children of promise. But, we ask, who are these? What are the conditions they must meet to be the "children of promise"?

Paul’s answer to this in verse 11, with the illustrations of Jacob and Esau, confronts us with the ultimate sovereignty of God in choosing who the beneficiaries of the promise will be. In referring to Jacob (who became the heir) and Esau (who did not) Paul says: "for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad [there’s the unconditionality, and here’s the reason for it], so that God's purpose according to election would stand [there’s the explanation deeper than human conditions – God’s sovereign purpose], not because of works but because of Him who calls [notice: he did not contrast works with faith, but with "Him who calls" – not even faith is in view here as a condition], Rebecca was told, "The older will serve the younger."

All this raises the question of God’s justice. Paul is hiding nothing here. He is putting it all out in the open. In verse 14 he says, "What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part?" Paul’s answer is no. And after quoting Moses about God’s freedom to have mercy on who he has mercy (v. 15) he repeats the absolute unconditionality of being chosen by God to be a child of promise. Verse 16: “So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."

Which leads, then, to the question in verse 19, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" Those are the questions we are confronted with in this chapter. Are all Israel the "children of promise" or only some? If only some, what makes one person a child of promise and another not? If it is ultimately God’s unconditional, free, sovereign electing mercy, then is he unjust? If he is that free to have mercy on whom he wills and harden whom he wills (v. 18), and if it does not depend on man who wills or man who runs (v. 16) then, why does he still find fault?



So you can see that the issue of divine election, and human will, and God’s justice, and human blame, and God’s sovereignty are all here in this chapter. But they are not here for their own sake. They are here to explain this burning question: How can God’s elect people, Israel, be accursed and cut off from Christ if the word of God is reliable? How can verse 6a be true: "But it is not as though the word of God has failed." That’s the issue in this chapter.
You left something off

Chapter 9-11 are a unit

heed the conclusion

Rom. 11:7–24 —KJV
“What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?”

Israel was not unconditionally cutoff from the foundation of the earth because of some unconditional election to salvation and reprobation but their own unbelief

nor was their condition without remedy

They if they remained not in unbelief could be grafted in again
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Israel was not unconditionally cutoff from the foundation of the earth because of some unconditional election to salvation and reprobation but their own unbelief
What is the reason for why they don’t believe? Why didn’t they believe?
Is there a purpose for their unbelief?

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. - Romans 11:25

Who purposed the “partial hardening” for the purpose of the “fullness of the Gentiles to come in”?


Did “Isreal” purposefully choose “unbelief” “until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in?

Who is in control of the “until” part?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
What is the reason for why they don’t believe? Why didn’t they believe?
Is there a purpose for their unbelief?

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. - Romans 11:25

Who purposed the “partial hardening” for the purpose of the “fullness of the Gentiles to come in”?


Did “Isreal” purposefully choose “unbelief” “until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in?

Who is in control of the “until” part?
Well lets see when individual Israelites were able to believe

Acts 2:36–41 —KJV
“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”

Acts 3:19–4:4 —KJV
“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
¶ And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them,
Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.
Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.”

It does seems they could be grafted in if they abide not in unbelieve

You assume your verse is prohibitive as opposed to prophetic
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Well lets see when individual Israelites were able to believe

Acts 2:36–41 —KJV
“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”

Acts 3:19–4:4 —KJV
“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
¶ And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them,
Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.
Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.”

It does seems they could be grafted in if they abide not in unbelieve

You assume your verse is prohibitive as opposed to prophetic
And you completely dodged the specific question?
For your convenience...
What is the reason for why they don’t believe? Why didn’t they believe?
Is there a purpose for their unbelief?

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. - Romans 11:25

Who purposed the “partial hardening” for the purpose of the “fullness of the Gentiles to come in”?


Did “Isreal” purposefully choose “unbelief” “until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in?

Who is in control of the “until” part?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
And you completely dodged the specific question?
For your convenience...
and you dodged the scriptures showing they could and some did in fact believe

So there was no unconditional decree causing them to remain cutoff

But Israel was cuttoff in part as a result of their own unbelief for a period of time to bring the gospel to the gentiles

You cannot ignore the fact they were judicially harden because of their unbelief

and try to convert that to an unconditional rejection of the Jews
 

Sketo

Well-known member
and you dodged the scriptures showing they could and some did in fact believe
Obviously “some did in fact believe”!
So there was no unconditional decree causing them to remain cutoff
...and then you say...
But Israel was cuttoff in part as a result of their own unbelief for a period of time to bring the gospel to the gentiles
“for a period of time to bring”

Who is in control of this “period of time”... for the Gentiles sake???
So again...
What is the reason for why they don’t believe? Why didn’t they believe?
Is there a purpose for their unbelief?

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. - Romans 11:25

Who purposed the “partial hardening” for the purpose of the “fullness of the Gentiles to come in”?


Did “Isreal” purposefully choose “unbelief” “until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in?

Who is in control of the “until” part?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Obviously “some did in fact believe”!

...and then you say...

“for a period of time to bring”

Who is in control of this “period of time”... for the Gentiles sake???
So again...


The period of time I spike of was to accomplish the crucifixion

nothing stopped the Jews from believing after that point as I already showed
 

Sketo

Well-known member
The period of time I spike of was to accomplish the crucifixion

The period of time... was to accomplish” denotes purpose on the part of who???

So again...
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. - Romans 11:25

Who purposed the “partial hardening” for the purpose of the “fullness of the Gentiles to come in”?


Did “Isreal” purposefully choose “unbelief” “until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in?

Who is in control of the “until” part?
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. - Romans 11:25

Who purposed the “partial hardening” for the purpose of the “fullness of the Gentiles to come in”?

Did “Isreal” purposefully choose “unbelief” “until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in? If not isreal then Who?

Who is in control of the “until” part?


The period of time I spike of was to accomplish the crucifixion
The period of time... was to accomplish” denotes purpose on the part of who???

God so as to establish the crucifixion as you were told

God is the Who of this mystery!
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. - Romans 11:25

Who purposed the “partial hardening” for the purpose of the “fullness of the Gentiles to come in”?

Did “Isreal” purposefully choose “unbelief” “until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in? If not isreal then Who?

Who is in control of the “until” part?



The period of time... was to accomplish” denotes purpose on the part of who???



God is the Who of this mystery!
This looks like a repeat

Israel was cutoff

Rom. 11:20 —KJV
“Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:”



Rom. 11:23 —KJV
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.”


It looks like you are still assuming determination as opposed to predictive prophesy
 
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