What Is The Basis For Your Mormon Faith?

Aaron32

Well-known member
People who reject the Biblical God and the Biblical Word are suppressing substantial truth God has made available to them (Romans 1:18-25)

Also here is Luke 16:27-31,
27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house—
28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29 "But Abraham *said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
30 "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

See the importance God puts on His true prophetic Word! A true prophet's words have verifiable evidence in Fulfillment!

Think about this for a moment, God is saying His Biblical Word is greater verifiable evidence than you seeing someone rise from the dead!
Jesus was killed by those who claimed to be scholars of the written word. Until you can explain how you are any better than them, then I'll find validity in your words. Until then, all I see is bias.

Sorry,

True Faith is based upon True Truth

Truth is based upon verifiable evidence

It is the same way with 'Hope,' you have the hope that is associated with the world which is a wishful longing that circumstances will turn out in a favorable way

Then you have the 'Living Hope' that Peter talks about in 1 Peter, which is as sure as the sun coming up tomorrow!
I absolutely agree with these truisms. The only thing I would submit is that we need to seek for the evidence we are biblically told to seek.
“If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.” - John 7:17

If the Book of Mormon says read and pray about it to know the truth, you can't make up your own rules, look for different evidence, and then claim it false based on your own requirements. That's what atheists do.

Faith in the Biblical God is as sure as the sun coming up tomorrow, it is not a worldly type of hope-so faith
Amen!
We just interpret the Bible differently.
 

RCM

Active member
I've yet to see a scriptural premise from you that defines "credible". When you have it, let me know. Otherwise, I'm just chalking it up to your opinion.


I'm not sure if you know this, but Mormonism is not Protestant Christianity. It's the "philosophies of man mingled with scripture" is the whole reason we reject the doctrine of the Trinity. Please stop projecting your religion on to my religion.
D&C 29:7 "...for mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts;"
IMHO - If you have to be compelled to believe by human logic and reason in order to believe, you're probably not sufficiently humble.

That's true. But in the stories of the Book of Mormon, what did the warning prophets say about their predecessors and why they should believed?
Generally the reasoning was to have faith, trust in the fruits of the spirit, take the warnings borne out of priesthood authority, seriously.

Actually, I believe God gave us the Book of Mormon in the way that he did for people to actually find true faith:
Ether 4:
13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.
14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.
15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.

You have chosen to put your faith in Joseph Smith, it is as plain and simple as that, everything about mormonism is tied to Joseph Smith, without Joseph Smith, mormonism wouldn't exist

Because there is absolutely no evidence of or for the Book of Mormon prior to Joseph Smith

Joseph Smith completely fails the test of being a prophet of the Biblical God with his statement about Jesus Christ, no prophet of the Biblical God would make that mistake!


The quote from Joseph Smith,

"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)



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RCM

Active member
And yet, there were still very knowledgeable Jews that didn't believe. It was so obvious, why is that?

They chose not to believe the Biblical God for the same reasons that you have chosen not to believe the Biblical God

Do not make a mistake, the mormon god is not the same as the Biblical God, which has been proven in contrast between Joseph Smith's King Follett Discourse and Exodus 3:14
And yet, we have seen bible scholars make prediction based on their interpretation of the Bible, and they were dead wrong. Why is that if the interpretation of the Bible is indisputable and plainly obvious?
The Bible tells you of prophetic events that are yet future and are going to happen, but God doesn't reveal the precise time that something is going to happen, and people have made fools of themselves

If you can't acknowledge how bias plays a role in our beliefs, then you missed a lesson in critical thinking and identifying truth.

Please explain to me how you are using critical thinking in your assessment of Joseph Smith?


Agreed, but see my first question above.
I could give a scriptural basis on the Book of Mormon and the apostasy and restoration of the priesthood is fulfilled, but you'd simply mock people. PEople see what they want to see. This is why prophets were stoned by their own people in the Bible.

I am sorry, but Paul says that anyone preaching another Gospel other than the Biblical Gospel, they should be accursed

Galatians 1:9, " As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"

The mormon gospel is not the Biblical gospel and it come from Joseph Smith who blasphemed Jesus

Also look at Jude,

Jude 1:3-4, "Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.


Jude's warning there points directly to people like Joseph Smith


Again, you're missing the heart of your fallacy. If what Daniel wrote was so obvious, why did knowledgeable Jews reject Jesus.

They were involved in religion, and did not have a personal relationship with the living Biblical God

You are involved in religion and do not have a personal relationship with the living Biblical God

It takes more than flesh and blood to discern the truth. IMO - It's a safer course to possess the behaviors and attributes taught in the beatitudes, and be humble.
Can I acknowledge that I might be plausibly wrong? Sure. It's a possibility. I can accept that. If so, what is it that is required of me? That's why I've learned biblical Christianity and ensure I've paid the upmost farthing so that I can remain blameless according to both God and man.

You are playing the game of religion and works and one day, you are going to hear the Biblical Jesus say to you,

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART from ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE lawlessness.'


Do you see what Jesus is saying here, the will of God, the requirement of God is that you know Jesus' personally, and mormonism won't get you there


Still, I can't deny the answer God has given of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

Maybe the Book of Mormon wasn't written to replace the Bible, but rather to testify of it, adding an additional witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ. Why is that such a problem for you?

Why is the Book of Mormon and mormonism a problem for me?

Joseph Smith, and his statement about Jesus Christ!

Paul's words in Galatians 1 and 2 Corinthians 11

Jude's words



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RCM

Active member
Not necessarily. Yet, there is deep symbolism if one reads the Book of Mormon with an archetypal understanding. Certain characters are given similar names that fulfill similar roles in the various stories. Certain names of places represent characteristic of people throughout the Book of Mormon. When you find such things, it's difficult to believe that Joseph Smith made it up on the fly while staring into his hat. Just sayin'.

You underestimate satan, and how he works through the counterfeit, appeals to pride, and attracts through idolatry

A lie garnished with snippets of truth, is still a lie


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RCM

Active member
Well, I'm not your typical mormon. I don't support the cultural beliefs carried within the Mormon community. I determine official "Mormon doctrine" when scriptures, priesthood authority, and personal revelation align. I'm fairly alone in many of my views.

You are still dependent upon Joseph Smith

I don't believe in Heavenly Mother, or teachings that became popular in the early 1900's after Brigham Young's death. Eliza R Snow (from which the idea originated) was not ordained as a prophetess, nor was the teaching sustained by the quorum of the Twelve. The King Follett Discourse says no spirits are created, but rather, we exist on a self-existent principle, just like God. The term "Father" is more symbolic than literal. We can be children of Christ, just as we can be children of the Devil. It goes a lot deeper.

Zechariah 12:1 completely refutes what you have referenced in the King Follett Discourse

Zechariah 12:1 in the Hebrew emphatically states that God creates and forms the spirit within each person in the same way a potter plans, forms, and makes pottery

Not to mention the fact that in the King Follett Discourse, Joseph Smith teaches that the mormon god was a man before he became god, this is complete heresy, which Exodus 3:14 exposes


Like I said, you are completely dependent upon Joseph Smith for your religious beliefs, and Joseph Smith fails your own test for Godly character



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Aaron32

Well-known member
You have chosen to put your faith in Joseph Smith, it is as plain and simple as that, everything about mormonism is tied to Joseph Smith, without Joseph Smith, mormonism wouldn't exist
True. Just like because I believe in the Bible, I put faith in the Catholic Church, because I believe in the need of a restoration, I put faith in Martin Luther.
But the faith that leads to my salvation isn't in a person or institutions. My faith is in the messages they shared and the truthfulness according to the fruits of the spirit, aligned with scripture.

Because there is absolutely no evidence of or for the Book of Mormon prior to Joseph Smith
The evidence is in the promise made in the Book of Mormon - Moroni 10:3-5. If you set your own criteria, then you are not truly seeking truth nor understanding, but just seeking to prove your own narrative. All I can say is, the Book of Mormon fulfilled it's promises. That's my witness, for whatever it's worth.
Joseph Smith completely fails the test of being a prophet of the Biblical God with his statement about Jesus Christ, no prophet of the Biblical God would make that mistake!
The very prophet in the Bible who set up that test often referred to was stoned by his own people. Jesus fulfilled biblical prophecy, and the experts of "the Law" led the charge in crucifying Him. Doesn't that give you any pause think that the devil is more deceptive than we credit for, and the humility to ask "Lord, is it I?"

The quote from Joseph Smith,

"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)
I don't believe Joseph Smith was perfect. In his visitation with the angel Moroni, it was prophesied "his name [would] be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues” which has been fulfilled, and for good reason. In my study of Joseph Smith is quite miraculous, and he is also a flawed individual.

I personally think he was bent out shape after all the blatant injustices toward the Church by the time he made this statement. Our Church teaches that God would remove the prophet out of his place if he ever led the church away, and Joseph Smith was killed a month after he reportedly made this statement.

Having said that, this quote of often taken out of context, and it's accuracy is even in question: https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org...lieve_that_he_was_better_than_Jesus_Christ.3F
 

RCM

Active member
Jesus was killed by those who claimed to be scholars of the written word. Until you can explain how you are any better than them, then I'll find validity in your words. Until then, all I see is bias.

The Jews rejected Jesus for claiming to be Holy God (Trinity - John 8:58)

And you reject the Biblical Jesus (Trinity) in the same way


I absolutely agree with these truisms. The only thing I would submit is that we need to seek for the evidence we are biblically told to seek.
“If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.” - John 7:17

If the Book of Mormon says read and pray about it to know the truth, you can't make up your own rules, look for different evidence, and then claim it false based on your own requirements. That's what atheists do.

So, is mormonism reflective of the Biblical God?

Here is a list, why it is not,
  1. Joseph Smith was and still is a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13 & 18) He blasphemed Jesus
  2. Joseph Smith taught the Biblical God was a man prior to becoming God (King Follett Discourse; see #1; Lorenzo Snow, see Exodus 3:14)
  3. Joseph Smith taught, promoted, and practice pagan cult prostitution (37 wives from 1841-1843) (polygamy)
  4. Joseph Smith plagiarized the King James Bible in translating from the gold plates (see #1, the gold plates were supposed to be older than 1611)
  5. Joseph Smith taught the Book of Mormon was the most correct Book of any book on Earth (see #1, see #4)
  6. The Book of Mormon has no archaeological or historical support
  7. The Book of Mormon geography does not correlate to the known real world
  8. Book of Mormon accounts concerning Hill Cumorah are fictional (see #1 and #5)
  9. No “Book of Mormon” people, cities, or lands have been located in the New World.
  10. No “Book of Mormon” names have been found in any New World inscriptions.
  11. No genuine inscriptions have been found in either Hebrew or Egyptian in the New World.
  12. No ancient copies of “Book of Mormon” scriptures have been found anywhere (see #6)
  13. No evidence of pre-Columbian wheat has been found anywhere in the Americas.
  14. No use of domestic animals among the ancient American peoples has ever been documented. B. H. Roberts, (noted LDS historian), stated that, “before the time of Columbus and the Spaniards, no tribe had any animal able to carry a man.”
  15. No use of iron ore or steel has ever been documented among the Native American peoples. No documented evidence of the battle at hill Cumorah has been found, especially no Chariots. (see #8)
  16. The Mormon Temple and its ceremonies have absolutely no correlation with the O.T. Jewish Temple (see Masonry)
  17. Mormonism teaches Satan is God’s Son, a brother to Jesus
  18. Mormonism teaches Jesus was born from natural human sexual relations between God the Father and Mary (Brigham Young and Bruce McConkie)
  19. The Mormon Prophet and Mormon Apostles are false prophets and apostles (Exposed by Mark Hoffman and the Salamander Letter)
  20. Mormonism changed the Garden of Eden from the location in relation to the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in Genesis 2:14, to Missouri in the United States
  21. Baptism and keeping all of God’s laws and commandments perfectly is essential for exaltation (vows are taken at Baptism, Sacrament, Temple Endowment Ceremony, confirmed by Ezra Benson and Spencer KimballEternal Security is being sealed in the Mormon Temple
And the list could go on and on and on!


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RCM

Active member
True. Just like because I believe in the Bible, I put faith in the Catholic Church,
False,

Joseph Smith fathered Mormonism

Heretical Christians fathered the Catholic Church

because I believe in the need of a restoration, I put faith in Martin Luther.

False,

The Catholic Church taught you had to believe and follow Church religion and ordinances to go to heaven

Martin Luther showed people that the Bible taught forgiveness and salvation through Jesus Christ alone


The mormon church restored the requirement of church religion and ordinances to go to heaven

But the faith that leads to my salvation isn't in a person or institutions. My faith is in the messages they shared and the truthfulness according to the fruits of the spirit, aligned with scripture.

If you don't have a personal relationship with the Biblical Jesus, you do not have salvation
The evidence is in the promise made in the Book of Mormon - Moroni 10:3-5. If you set your own criteria, then you are not truly seeking truth nor understanding, but just seeking to prove your own narrative. All I can say is, the Book of Mormon fulfilled it's promises. That's my witness, for whatever it's worth.

The Book of Mormon's promises are no better than who gave it to you, Joseph Smith

The very prophet in the Bible who set up that test often referred to was stoned by his own people. Jesus fulfilled biblical prophecy, and the experts of "the Law" led the charge in crucifying Him. Doesn't that give you any pause think that the devil is more deceptive than we credit for, and the humility to ask "Lord, is it I?"

Or, ask is it Joseph Smith?

I don't believe Joseph Smith was perfect. In his visitation with the angel Moroni, it was prophesied "his name [would] be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues” which has been fulfilled, and for good reason. In my study of Joseph Smith is quite miraculous, and he is also a flawed individual.

Joseph Smith did not represent the Biblical God and the Biblical Jesus, based upon his statement about Jesus Christ!


No, true prophet of God would say such a thing, ever!



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Aaron32

Well-known member
They chose not to believe the Biblical God for the same reasons that you have chosen not to believe the Biblical God
And it's the definition of "Biblical God" that is undefined wherein you assume your definition is correct, and mine is wrong.
Circular reasoning.

Do not make a mistake, the mormon god is not the same as the Biblical God, which has been proven in contrast between Joseph Smith's King Follett Discourse and Exodus 3:14
Sounds like the Pharisees making the same argument of Jesus proclaiming blaspheme by claiming he was the Son of God. We're all so certain, until we're not. Jews also believe in Exodus 3:14, and yet they believe in a different God than you do. How do you know you're right and their wrong. That's more of a rhetorical question. Hopefully you can get the point of how our ego plays tricks on us.

The Bible tells you of prophetic events that are yet future and are going to happen, but God doesn't reveal the precise time that something is going to happen, and people have made fools of themselves
But if the Bible text is so obvious, and they made fools of themselves. How do you know you're not making a fool of yourself right now?
Is it more important to argue who God is, or simply be the way we know we should be by being charitable? (1 Cor. 13)

Please explain to me how you are using critical thinking in your assessment of Joseph Smith?
I already have. The Book of Mormon gives its own criteria, and fulfilled it.
The Bible gives three sources of identifying truth and gaining knowledge: 1) scripture [2 Tim 3:16] , 2) the Church [Eph. 4:11-13], and 3) the Holy Ghost [John 14:26]
I am sorry, but Paul says that anyone preaching another Gospel other than the Biblical Gospel, they should be accursed

Galatians 1:9, " As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"
Ironically, 2 verses later, Paul declares this gospel was taught by revelation and not by men:

Galatians 1:
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

It's this "revelation" that I am defending, and you are condemning. So you tell me, between the two of us, who's preaching the contrary gospel than the one Paul declared?

The mormon gospel is not the Biblical gospel and it come from Joseph Smith who blasphemed Jesus
How? Go ahead and defend that statement. Let's see if you even know what you're talking about, or if you're simply parroting anti-mormon rhetoric. What is the mormon gospel, how is it contrary to the Biblical gospel?

Also look at Jude,

Jude 1:3-4, "Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Jude's warning there points directly to people like Joseph Smith
Yeah, I highly doubt any reasonable mind can consider the Law of Chastity of what we teach is "licentiousness". But it would be interesting to see you defend that claim.

The hypocrisy also baffles me. By your own behavior, you deny your claimed Lord and Master, Jesus Christ:
Gal 5:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

They were involved in religion, and did not have a personal relationship with the living Biblical God

You are involved in religion and do not have a personal relationship with the living Biblical God
Projection. How do you know my relationship with God?
How do you know you're not involved in religion, and have a personal relationship with the living Biblical God?
Your fruits say otherwise.

You are playing the game of religion and works and one day, you are going to hear the Biblical Jesus say to you,

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART from ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE lawlessness.'
Choose your words wisely.
HE also said:
Matt 7:2 "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

Do you see what Jesus is saying here, the will of God, the requirement of God is that you know Jesus' personally, and mormonism won't get you there
How do you figure?
I dare say, you don't know Mormonism as well as you think you do.
Why is the Book of Mormon and mormonism a problem for me?

Joseph Smith, and his statement about Jesus Christ!

Paul's words in Galatians 1 and 2 Corinthians 11

Jude's words
So you'd allow the perceived imperfections of another human prevent you from discovering the truth? This is called "the genetic fallacy".
Please expound more on how Galatians 1 and 2 Corinthians 11 have to do with the Book of Mormon. It's not quite clear to me.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
You underestimate satan, and how he works through the counterfeit, appeals to pride, and attracts through idolatry
I'm pretty sure I'm the one talking about the importance of humility and faith, and you're the one seeking for the evidence that can be objectively proven.
A lie garnished with snippets of truth, is still a lie
Very true. That's why I fight against anti-mormonism. It's not much different than what the Judiazers were doing to Paul.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
You are still dependent upon Joseph Smith
Just as I'm dependent on the Catholic church to believe the Bible, and the Protestant movement to believe in the need of a restoration.
I'm only dependent on God, and His voice that comes through various messengers.

Zechariah 12:1 completely refutes what you have referenced in the King Follett Discourse

Zechariah 12:1 in the Hebrew emphatically states that God creates and forms the spirit within each person in the same way a potter plans, forms, and makes pottery
Nice. I haven't seen this rebuttle before.
A couple observations:

1) It still aligns with my beliefs.

Compare:
Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
and
D&C 76:
22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.


How does this life and our choices form our spirits? We can have power to become sons of God, or children of the Devil, no?

I suppose we could then go into the question of freewill vs predestination, but that is beside the point.

2) If God formed all spirits then let me ask: Is Satan a spirit? Are you a spirit? Did God form both of your spirits? Does that mean YOU the brother of Satan?

As much as anti-mormonism likes to claim we belief Jesus was created, I don't see any scriptural evidence to that claim. In fact, I see the opposite.


Not to mention the fact that in the King Follett Discourse, Joseph Smith teaches that the mormon god was a man before he became god, this is complete heresy, which Exodus 3:14 exposes
First, it's interesting that you place the KFD as the central work of our beliefs, and your primary material as the basis of your attack.

Doing this is CONTRARY to our religion, and everything must be placed in context:
D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

It's this error that causes you to spread lies, and be duped into the cult of anti-mormonism.

Second, your debating things that neither of us can prove - the origin of God, and we can only go to the authority of our own postulations and opinions.
If you're going to attack mormonism, atleast acknowledge the previous principles and doctrines established BEFORE the KFD.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Third, let me ask you this. Though Jesus descended and become man, was he ever less than a God? No, he wasn't.
Likewise, Mormons teach we have divine potential, that doesn't mean we didn't have divine origins. It's the philosophies of secular Christianity that teaches God is an extra-terrestial being that we can never become like, not the Bible. See here for a further explanation.

Like I said, you are completely dependent upon Joseph Smith for your religious beliefs, and Joseph Smith fails your own test for Godly character
Like most people, you continually fall back on your own talking points to defend your argument. But upon further examination, it comes up lacking.

No offense, but you lack the godly character to make such a judgment. Make your behavior more congruent with the Bible, and then may I'll take your opinion more seriously. Having said that I recognize your good intentions, and I thank you for trying to save me.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
The Jews rejected Jesus for claiming to be Holy God (Trinity - John 8:58)

And you reject the Biblical Jesus (Trinity) in the same way
Ah. See, the condemnation is not about the biblical beliefs, it's about Trinitarian beliefs - an interpretation of the Bible.
Jesus never claimed to be THE God, only the Son of God. Of which he also taught we share the same Father (John 20:17)

So, is mormonism reflective of the Biblical God?

Here is a list, why it is not,
  1. Joseph Smith was and still is a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13 & 18) He blasphemed Jesus
  2. Joseph Smith taught the Biblical God was a man prior to becoming God (King Follett Discourse; see #1; Lorenzo Snow, see Exodus 3:14)
  3. Joseph Smith taught, promoted, and practice pagan cult prostitution (37 wives from 1841-1843) (polygamy)
  4. Joseph Smith plagiarized the King James Bible in translating from the gold plates (see #1, the gold plates were supposed to be older than 1611)
  5. Joseph Smith taught the Book of Mormon was the most correct Book of any book on Earth (see #1, see #4)
  6. The Book of Mormon has no archaeological or historical support
  7. The Book of Mormon geography does not correlate to the known real world
  8. Book of Mormon accounts concerning Hill Cumorah are fictional (see #1 and #5)
  9. No “Book of Mormon” people, cities, or lands have been located in the New World.
  10. No “Book of Mormon” names have been found in any New World inscriptions.
  11. No genuine inscriptions have been found in either Hebrew or Egyptian in the New World.
  12. No ancient copies of “Book of Mormon” scriptures have been found anywhere (see #6)
  13. No evidence of pre-Columbian wheat has been found anywhere in the Americas.
  14. No use of domestic animals among the ancient American peoples has ever been documented. B. H. Roberts, (noted LDS historian), stated that, “before the time of Columbus and the Spaniards, no tribe had any animal able to carry a man.”
  15. No use of iron ore or steel has ever been documented among the Native American peoples. No documented evidence of the battle at hill Cumorah has been found, especially no Chariots. (see #8)
  16. The Mormon Temple and its ceremonies have absolutely no correlation with the O.T. Jewish Temple (see Masonry)
  17. Mormonism teaches Satan is God’s Son, a brother to Jesus
  18. Mormonism teaches Jesus was born from natural human sexual relations between God the Father and Mary (Brigham Young and Bruce McConkie)
  19. The Mormon Prophet and Mormon Apostles are false prophets and apostles (Exposed by Mark Hoffman and the Salamander Letter)
  20. Mormonism changed the Garden of Eden from the location in relation to the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in Genesis 2:14, to Missouri in the United States
  21. Baptism and keeping all of God’s laws and commandments perfectly is essential for exaltation (vows are taken at Baptism, Sacrament, Temple Endowment Ceremony, confirmed by Ezra Benson and Spencer KimballEternal Security is being sealed in the Mormon Temple
And the list could go on and on and on!
This is quite an impressive list you've built up for yourself here.
And yet, how many point have to deal the your criteria - "the Biblical God"?
Most of your points are your judgments and opinions based on your limited knowledge and reasoning. You seek to debate what you cannot prove or are willing to understand.
A lot of these points are strawmen, parroted by anti-mormonism. For example, no mormon leader ever said "Jesus is the brother of Satan".
I'll be happy to address any of these points individually in depth. It's a little difficult to address a carpet bomb.

Deut 29:4 Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
False,

Joseph Smith fathered Mormonism

Heretical Christians fathered the Catholic Church
So is the Bible heretical also? It's by the same authority that determined the canon of the Bible.

False,

The Catholic Church taught you had to believe and follow Church religion and ordinances to go to heaven

Martin Luther showed people that the Bible taught forgiveness and salvation through Jesus Christ alone
So Jesus and the apostles didn't teach ordinances? The great commission is optional?

The mormon church restored the requirement of church religion and ordinances to go to heaven
Just as Jesus did. Go figure.

If you don't have a personal relationship with the Biblical Jesus, you do not have salvation
Agreed.

The Book of Mormon's promises are no better than who gave it to you, Joseph Smith
Well, considering I believe God gave us the Book of Mormon.... :rolleyes:
Your beliefs about our religion are no better than those who gave them to you. Who might that be?

Or, ask is it Joseph Smith?
Oh, I see. So as long as we can convict the evil and wickedness of a mortal man, we are justified and God won't hold us accountable. Is that it?
By that same reasoning, I just have to dig up all your imperfections and mistakes, and then I have no need to listen to your words.
Seeing as how we're all fallen men, how about we just turn to God and trust in Him?

Joseph Smith did not represent the Biblical God and the Biblical Jesus, based upon his statement about Jesus Christ!
Clearly, you've hit a brick wall, and can't seem to evolve your reasoning or dig deeper. It seems as if our discussion has come to an end.
No, true prophet of God would say such a thing, ever!
Just as the Pharisees were so certain no man could declare himself to be the Son of God. It turns out, they were wrong too.
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
Ironically, 2 verses later, Paul declares this gospel was taught by revelation and not by men:

Galatians 1:
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

NON-MORMONS, your arguments will be challenged and ignored unless a doubting Mormon reads them.


The Bible is God-breathed. Men didn't corrupt it. An ex-Mormon might believe that men corrupted it, so that ex-Mormon will become an atheist or non-Christian. If God didn't care enough to preserve His word, Christianity has very little significance.


It's this "revelation" that I am defending, and you are condemning. So you tell me, between the two of us, who's preaching the contrary gospel than the one Paul declared?

Paul preached, Apollos preached, Peter preached. Those men converted no one. Only God convinces through personal revelation. A Mormon filters everything through false prophets and particularly Joseph Smith.

The Bible is God-breathed. It is what GOD said.

2 Timothy 3:15-17 NIV
15 how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God a may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

SERIOUSLY!

Psalm 119:11

Proverbs 3:5-6

This forum on Mormonism can strengthen the faith of those GOD is leading to believe HIS truth! We aren't converted by men or by prophets.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
NON-MORMONS, your arguments will be challenged and ignored unless a doubting Mormon reads them.
How does one mutually challenge and ignore something? lol

The Bible is God-breathed.
Agreed.
Men didn't corrupt it.
Corrupt minds can't receive the things of God unless they're humble.

An ex-Mormon might believe that men corrupted it, so that ex-Mormon will become an atheist or non-Christian. If God didn't care enough to preserve His word, Christianity has very little significance.
Ummm...ok? What does this have to do with anything?

Paul preached, Apollos preached, Peter preached. Those men converted no one. Only God convinces through personal revelation.
Very true.
A Mormon filters everything through false prophets and particularly Joseph Smith.
Bzzzt! Wrong. Mormon critics expressly ignore their criteria declare, thus making "Mormons" the problem, and not their reasoning.

The Bible is God-breathed. It is what GOD said.
Agreed. The problem is when Christians equate their personal beliefs to the Bible.

2 Timothy 3:15-17 NIV
15 how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God a may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
I'm pretty sure I already cited 2 Tim 2:17 above. Is there a reason your bringing this up?
Are you just looking for any excuse to sound off or something?
SERIOUSLY!

Psalm 119:11

Proverbs 3:5-6
Is it pure irony that you're citing these scriptures.

"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart...." unless we disagree with you, then we should forget our beliefs and trust in you instead.

This forum on Mormonism can strengthen the faith of those GOD is leading to believe HIS truth!
That's true.

We aren't converted by men or by prophets.
You said it.
D&C 1:16 "16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall."
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
How does one mutually challenge and ignore something? lol

Who said a challenge and resistance (ignore) have to be mutual? Why are you reacting with "lol"?
Some Mormons enjoy challenging. Millions of Mormons are taught Mormonism from childhood (starting as toddlers) and told why Christianity is wrong. I witnessed years of that, but thankfully I wasn't raised in Mormonism.


Sounds good, but I NEVER met a Mormon who believed that the Bibles we read today are God breathed.

Joseph Smith said, "I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors."

The false gods of Mormonism waited thousands of years to supposedly restore truth to earth. In so doing, the first attack was on the veracity of the God-breathed Bible.

How many gods are there and who created them?

Mormon scripture, Pearl of Great Price, ABRAHAM, CHAPTER 4:

"The Gods plan the creation of the earth and all life thereon -----Their plans for the six days of creation are set forth."

Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than any other book.” (History of the Church, 4:46)

False teachings are not a restoration of Christianity.
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
...
Is it pure irony that you're citing these scriptures.

"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart...." unless we disagree with you, then we should forget our beliefs and trust in you instead....

NO. I never asked a Mormon to trust me. I am not the Lord and you have no business suggesting that I am or that I EVER made that claim!
 

RCM

Active member
And it's the definition of "Biblical God" that is undefined wherein you assume your definition is correct, and mine is wrong.
Circular reasoning.

You want mormonism to be considered complimentary to the Bible

In Biblical Theology, all scripture and doctrine must agree with previous revelation with no contradiction!

The Hebrew Imperfect grammar in Exodus 3:14 establishes the theology and doctrine of God, and the Greek Imperfect grammar in John 1:1 complements and supports the theology of the Biblical God, this is why Jesus says in John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."


The mormon definition and doctrine of god comes 3000 years later from Joseph Smith and the King Follett discourse and is contradictory, therefore it is heretical and a lie

You are the one who is a assuming and assuming wrong

The Biblical God is the Living God and the mormon god doesn't exist!



Sounds like the Pharisees making the same argument of Jesus proclaiming blaspheme by claiming he was the Son of God. We're all so certain, until we're not. Jews also believe in Exodus 3:14, and yet they believe in a different God than you do. How do you know you're right and their wrong. That's more of a rhetorical question. Hopefully you can get the point of how our ego plays tricks on us.

You don't know your Bible and you don't know the belief of the Jews!

The Jews believed in the Biblical God, they just didn't know Him personally, they attempted to acquire God's acceptance and righteousness through the law, have you not read Romans 9?

Romans 9:30-33
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33 just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY in ZION A STONE of STUMBLING and a rock of offense, AND HE WHO BELIEVES in HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

The Jews rejected Jesus' claim that He was the God of Exodus 3:14

But if the Bible text is so obvious, and they made fools of themselves. How do you know you're not making a fool of yourself right now?
Is it more important to argue who God is, or simply be the way we know we should be by being charitable? (1 Cor. 13)

Because the Biblical God has proven Himself and His Word true through fulfilled prophecy!


Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon are completely bankrupt, no historical, nor archaeological evidence and certainly no fulfilled prophecy!



I already have. The Book of Mormon gives its own criteria, and fulfilled it.
The Bible gives three sources of identifying truth and gaining knowledge: 1) scripture [2 Tim 3:16] , 2) the Church [Eph. 4:11-13], and 3) the Holy Ghost [John 14:26]

In John 17:17, Jesus said, "Sanctify them in Truth, Your Word is Truth," which is a reference to the OT Scriptures as being the foundation of truth, to which mormon doctrine is in contradiction with and therefore, heresy

Why didn't you continue with the Ephesians 4 Scriptures?

Ephesians 4:14, "As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; (Paul again describes and warns about people like, Joseph Smith and mormons)


Ironically, 2 verses later, Paul declares this gospel was taught by revelation and not by men:

Galatians 1:
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

It's this "revelation" that I am defending, and you are condemning. So you tell me, between the two of us, who's preaching the contrary gospel than the one Paul declared?

You are quoting the Bible in an attempt to defend mormonism

The revelation mormonism claims is contradictory to the OT Scriptures and what Jesus said was truth in John 17:17, therefore, your mormonism is heresy and a lie!


And your rhetoric is beginning to look a lot like what Paul warned about in Ephesians 4:14

How? Go ahead and defend that statement. Let's see if you even know what you're talking about, or if you're simply parroting anti-mormon rhetoric. What is the mormon gospel, how is it contrary to the Biblical gospel?

The 13 Articles of faith as outlined by Joseph Smith, and #4 in particular contain the basic core principles of the gospel and the plan of salvation for the Mormon Church

All 13 Mormon Articles of faith are unbiblical based upon the Mormon definition of God that is contradictory to Exodus 3:14 and John 1:1


The mormon gospel is contrary to the Biblical Gospel first and foremost on the doctrine and theology of God and Jesus Christ!
Yeah, I highly doubt any reasonable mind can consider the Law of Chastity of what we teach is "licentiousness". But it would be interesting to see you defend that claim.

Joseph Smith really modeled and provided a great example of Biblical morality didn't' he?


Projection. How do you know my relationship with God?

You are a mormon, so I know that you do not know the Biblical Jesus personally! (Matthew 7:21-23)

I dare say, you don't know Mormonism as well as you think you do.

Really, tell me the origin and basis for the mormon temple and its symbolism and handshakes?


Is it OT Biblical Scriptures, or is it paganism and masonry?



RCM
 

RCM

Active member
Nice. I haven't seen this rebuttle before.
A couple observations:

1) It still aligns with my beliefs.

Compare:
Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
and
D&C 76:
22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.


How does this life and our choices form our spirits? We can have power to become sons of God, or children of the Devil, no?

I suppose we could then go into the question of freewill vs predestination, but that is beside the point.

2) If God formed all spirits then let me ask: Is Satan a spirit? Are you a spirit? Did God form both of your spirits? Does that mean YOU the brother of Satan?

As much as anti-mormonism likes to claim we belief Jesus was created, I don't see any scriptural evidence to that claim. In fact, I see the opposite.

Your answer here is a perfect example of how Biblical beliefs and mormon beliefs are completely contradictory

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is Holy God, uncreated, and existing from all eternity past

Colossians 1 is explicit, Jesus created all things, period, that means your spirit


satan was created as an angel (cherub) Ezekiel 28; Isaiah 14


First, it's interesting that you place the KFD as the central work of our beliefs, and your primary material as the basis of your attack.

Doing this is CONTRARY to our religion, and everything must be placed in context:
D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

It's this error that causes you to spread lies, and be duped into the cult of anti-mormonism.

Joseph Smith gave you the Book of Mormon

Joseph Smith claimed to be a prophet

Joseph Smith delivered the King Follett Discourse at a General Conference

The context is, Joseph Smith's theology of the mormon god is contradictory to Exodus 3:14 and John 1:1 and John 8:58



Second, your debating things that neither of us can prove - the origin of God, and we can only go to the authority of our own postulations and opinions.

The proof is God's own words recorded by Moses

Now, whether you believe them or not, it doesn't matter, but there is no question that Moses' definition of God and Joseph Smith's definition of God are light years apart

You want to relegate it to the status of opinion so you can justify your belief in a false religion

Third, let me ask you this. Though Jesus descended and become man, was he ever less than a God? No, he wasn't.

Your grammar exposes your heretical theology, notice how I bolded the indefinite article you used

You sound just like a Jehovah's Witness

And with that little indefinite article slipped in there you completely reveal the fact that you do not believe in the Biblical Jesus


So, thank you for that clarification



Likewise, Mormons teach we have divine potential, that doesn't mean we didn't have divine origins. It's the philosophies of secular Christianity that teaches God is an extra-terrestial being that we can never become like, not the Bible. See here for a further explanation.

Sounds like Joseph Smith and the King Follett Discourse

Sounds like mormon god and the Biblical God are contradictory


Like most people, you continually fall back on your own talking points to defend your argument. But upon further examination, it comes up lacking.

You are right that I fall back to foundational talking points

Joseph Smith was not a prophet of the Biblical God, he fails according to Deuteronomy 13 & Deuteronomy 18

No offense, but you lack the godly character to make such a judgment. Make your behavior more congruent with the Bible, and then may I'll take your opinion more seriously. Having said that I recognize your good intentions, and I thank you for trying to save me.

My judgment is based upon the warnings of Jesus, Paul, John, Peter, Jude, and James about false prophets, false doctrine, and false teaching



RCM
 

RCM

Active member
Ah. See, the condemnation is not about the biblical beliefs, it's about Trinitarian beliefs - an interpretation of the Bible.
Jesus never claimed to be THE God, only the Son of God. Of which he also taught we share the same Father (John 20:17)

You are completely ignorant of the greek grammar of Matthew 1:23 and its implications

Mormonism is a mis-interpretation of the Bible, via Joseph Smith

So, we are right back where we started, Joseph Smith was not a prophet of the Biblical God, and his statement about Jesus Christ proves it



RCM
 
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