What is the Church for?

RayneBeau

Well-known member
First of all, are you talking about the "church of Christ" which is His body, and is made up of all born-again believers and followers of Jesus Christ. Or are you talking about the 'church' that you believe to be the one and only true apostolic church - aka the Roman Catholic Church?
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
First of all, are you talking about the "church of Christ" which is His body, and is made up of all born-again believers and followers of Jesus Christ. Or are you talking about the 'church' that you believe to be the one and only true apostolic church - aka the Roman Catholic Church?
Both. If there is no unified religious institution that can be identified as something like a/the "true apostolic Church" then Jesus either (a) founded/established a Church but it has ceased to exist or (b) never founded/established a Church. I think this claim can be substantiated on the fact that "the set of all born-again believers and followers of Jesus Christ" is a disparate and disunited set and fails to conform to the conditions clear in scripture.
 

mica

Well-known member
Both. If there is no unified religious institution that can be identified as something like a/the "true apostolic Church" then Jesus either (a) founded/established a Church but it has ceased to exist or (b) never founded/established a Church.
you're part of a religious institution. believers are not. we are a 'called out people'. He has called us out of the world to be His.

I think this claim can be substantiated on the fact that "the set of all born-again believers and followers of Jesus Christ" is a disparate and disunited set and fails to conform to the conditions clear in scripture.
why do you think that?

what happens when one is born again? when, where, how and why does it happen?
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
you're part of a religious institution. believers are not. we are a 'called out people'. He has called us out of the world to be His.


why do you think that?

what happens when one is born again? when, where, how and why does it happen?
I think that because everyone claiming to be "born again" can't agree with each other on fundamental doctrines and practices of the faith. The conditions set down for the Church in scripture include things like unity, hierarchy, able to settle disputes, etc., which if by Church we mean "set of all born-again believers and followers of Jesus Christ" it doesn't fit.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Okay, let's look at these qualities and see which of them Francis is violating:
- faithful to his wife; I'd say Francis is very faithful to the Church considering that he has given his life for her
- temperate; I've never seen him go off the rails, rant, get drunk or anything like that
- self-controlled; he seems pretty self-controlled to me
- respectable; I'd say he's respectable
- hospital; lots of evidence of his hospitality to those who visit the Vatican
- able to teach; while he's not the clearest or most precise theologian in the world, his teaching is generally fine
- not given to drunkenness, violent or quarrelsome; see above
- not a lover of money; if anything, Francis has made papal living more frugal than any recent pope
- manage his own family well; I think this is something he tries to do
- not a recent convert; obviously
- good reputation with outsiders; his reputation is excellent with outsiders
He is not married at all in the terms that scripture means.
If we take your institution (pushing boundaries) as his family, it is out of control. He has not stamped out the evil in the family at all. He is respectable is really just your opinion. Anyone who teaches false doctrines is not respectable to me. I don't know him well enough to know about his drinking habits. But the priests I knew growing up all had drinking problems. If he was a non lover of money he would put all those pieces of artwork into art galleries were they could be seen by the many not a few. He does not even have a good reputation within the church, there is a lot who do not respect him. So again a matter of opinion.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
I'm curious to know what people on this forum think about the Church's purpose in the world. Clearly, establishing the Church - the called out community of God - was central to Christ's mission, but why? What is the Church for?
Simple - to preach the simplicity of the Gospel, and allow the Holy Spirit to CONVICT folks of their SIN and draw them to Repentance so that they can be Born Again of the Holy Spirit by FAITH in the perfect SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross, and be infilled by the Holy Spirit to become Christians. THEN they can go out and Minister the same to others who are Lost. The church always was, IS, and always will be People moving in the power and guidance of the Holy Spirit. - period.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
He is not married at all in the terms that scripture means.
If we take your institution (pushing boundaries) as his family, it is out of control. He has not stamped out the evil in the family at all. He is respectable is really just your opinion. Anyone who teaches false doctrines is not respectable to me. I don't know him well enough to know about his drinking habits. But the priests I knew growing up all had drinking problems. If he was a non lover of money he would put all those pieces of artwork into art galleries were they could be seen by the many not a few. He does not even have a good reputation within the church, there is a lot who do not respect him. So again a matter of opinion.
Why does he have to be married? When scripture talks about needing to have one wife the focus is on the one not the wife, or else it would rule out Jesus and Paul for similar leadership, which would be odd.

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balshan

Well-known member
Why does he have to be married? When scripture talks about needing to have one wife the focus is on the one not the wife, or else it would rule out Jesus and Paul for similar leadership, which would be odd.

I'm not sure how unbiased or reasonable your judgement of him would be, Balshan, so I'll leave it at that. "But the priests I knew growing up all had drinking problems" - Wowsers! Where did you grow up? In Scotland? ;-)
No. But they were drunks and that does not me a wowser at all. And your smart comments and racist comment are uncalled for. You were being nasty about Scottish people. There is reasonable drinking and then there are drunks.

I'm not sure how unbiased or reasonable your judgement of him would be applies to you as well. I think if Paul wrote about being married he saw it as the preferred state. Peter was married. Always trying to find loopholes because you need to defend the fact that your institution is not apostolic at all. You need to find ways around scriptures to justify the ignoring of them. It is obvious.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
No. But they were drunks and that does not me a wowser at all. And your smart comments and racist comment are uncalled for. You were being nasty about Scottish people. There is reasonable drinking and then there are drunks.

I'm not sure how unbiased or reasonable your judgement of him would be applies to you as well. I think if Paul wrote about being married he saw it as the preferred state. Peter was married. Always trying to find loopholes because you need to defend the fact that your institution is not apostolic at all. You need to find ways around scriptures to justify the ignoring of them. It is obvious.
My apologies for offending any Scottish sensibilities people might have on here!

I've know dozens of priests throughout my life so far and none of them are drunks. I wonder if the problem was endemic to a local area and/or time.

My point in bringing up Paul was that it isn't a necessary condition of being a Church leader (bishop/overseer or priest/elder) that a man has to be married. Even if marriage is the preferable state (which I think is difficult to square with what Jesus says - e.g. Matt 19:11-12 - and Paul says - e.g. 1 Cor 7:1) it is not necessary.
 

balshan

Well-known member
My apologies for offending any Scottish sensibilities people might have on here!

I've know dozens of priests throughout my life so far and none of them are drunks. I wonder if the problem was endemic to a local area and/or time.

My point in bringing up Paul was that it isn't a necessary condition of being a Church leader (bishop/overseer or priest/elder) that a man has to be married. Even if marriage is the preferable state (which I think is difficult to square with what Jesus says - e.g. Matt 19:11-12 - and Paul says - e.g. 1 Cor 7:1) it is not necessary.
Look we know you have only met perfect priests.. But have grown up with drunks, you know that people stumbling around, laughing inanely. slurring words etc are drunk. People would laugh and say they are drunk again. It wasn't a secret. It was not all the priests but a large majority of those who went through the parish. I have no problem with moderate drinkers. But going out in a boat and drinking is as bad as drunk driving a motor car.
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
I can tell you for a fact what the Church is NOT for. It's definitely NOT for a Mass that 're-sacrifices" Jesus Christ at every performance of the Mass. I know, I know, some of the Roman Catholics will say that the RCC has never done that or taught that. However, having been a very RCC indoctrinated Roman Catholic myself, for more than a quarter of a century, I know that anyone that believes that it is not taught by the Roman Catholic Church that Jesus is re-sacrificed at every single RC Mass, is simply not being truthful, as even a cursory reading of a Roman Catholic catechism will make clear.
If you need a church for salvation, then you're in trouble. A Christian will always be Christian even he/she doesn't attend church.

Nowadays, it's difficult to be affiliated with a church because pastors don't always teach the truth.

I'm curious to know what people on this forum think about the Church's purpose in the world. Clearly, establishing the Church - the called out community of God - was central to Christ's mission, but why? What is the Church for?
Why is it important to have some knowledge of the "Church's" purpose and history in the world before you understand where the "Church" is today, most particularly the "church" called the Roman Catholic Church?
 

mica

Well-known member
My apologies for offending any Scottish sensibilities people might have on here!

I've know dozens of priests throughout my life so far and none of them are drunks. I wonder if the problem was endemic to a local area and/or time.

My point in bringing up Paul was that it isn't a necessary condition of being a Church leader (bishop/overseer or priest/elder) that a man has to be married. Even if marriage is the preferable state (which I think is difficult to square with what Jesus says - e.g. Matt 19:11-12 - and Paul says - e.g. 1 Cor 7:1) it is not necessary.
what in those verses causes you to believe that not being married is preferable?

11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Why is it important to have some knowledge of the "Church's" purpose and history in the world before you understand where the "Church" is today, most particularly the "church" called the Roman Catholic Church?
I guess I would think it's important because you can tell what something is by knowing its purpose. As Aristotle said, if a knife had a soul it would be a cutting soul. By knowing the purpose of the Church, we can see where the Church is today and whether this has accorded with its existence historically.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
what in those verses causes you to believe that not being married is preferable?

11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
That Jesus says that "he that is able to receive it, let him receive it", which suggests a preferable state (at least, to me). Also, that Jesus himself was single.
 

mica

Well-known member
That Jesus says that "he that is able to receive it, let him receive it", which suggests a preferable state (at least, to me). Also, that Jesus himself was single.
no it does not.
that's because you believe what the RCC teaches instead of what His word teaches.
 

leonard03782

Well-known member
I think that because everyone claiming to be "born again" can't agree with each other on fundamental doctrines and practices of the faith. The conditions set down for the Church in scripture include things like unity, hierarchy, able to settle disputes, etc., which if by Church we mean "set of all born-again believers and followers of Jesus Christ" it doesn't fit.
Just because someone says that they are born again, does not mean that it is true.

As Christians, we are supposed to separate ourselves from those who are apostate or heretical in their beliefs after they have been given an opportunity to repent and refuse to do so.

2 Corinthians 6:14-17 King James Version
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
 

Mysterium Fidei

Active member
I'm curious to know what people on this forum think about the Church's purpose in the world. Clearly, establishing the Church - the called out community of God - was central to Christ's mission, but why? What is the Church for?

I'm curious to know what people on this forum think about the Church's purpose in the world. Clearly, establishing the Church - the called out community of God - was central to Christ's mission, but why? What is the Church for?
The Catholic Church was founded by the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity, Jesus Christ, as a visible society, to teach, rule and sanctify man.
 

mica

Well-known member
That Jesus says that "he that is able to receive it, let him receive it", which suggests a preferable state (at least, to me). Also, that Jesus himself was single.
are all catholic priests eunuchs?

12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
 
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