What is the Church for?

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
Okay, let's look at these qualities and see which of them Francis is violating:
- faithful to his wife; I'd say Francis is very faithful to the Church considering that he has given his life for her
- temperate; I've never seen him go off the rails, rant, get drunk or anything like that
- self-controlled; he seems pretty self-controlled to me
- respectable; I'd say he's respectable
- hospital; lots of evidence of his hospitality to those who visit the Vatican
- able to teach; while he's not the clearest or most precise theologian in the world, his teaching is generally fine
- not given to drunkenness, violent or quarrelsome; see above
- not a lover of money; if anything, Francis has made papal living more frugal than any recent pope
- manage his own family well; I think this is something he tries to do
- not a recent convert; obviously
- good reputation with outsiders; his reputation is excellent with outsiders
He's a socialist that's just fine with gay marriage. Nuff said.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
He's a socialist that's just fine with gay marriage. Nuff said.
As someone who is a socialist, I wouldn't describe Pope Francis as one. He also does not endorse "same-sex marriage" saying, e.g., it is "an anthropological regression" that "disfigures God's plan for creation".
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
I agree. But, also beware of false teachers. They don't even need to be in a cult group. So called "mainstream" Christianity has many of them.

Pastors should not be treated as a source of knowledge, understanding, and wisdom. Many brought harm to the flock during this pandemic.
I agree we need to be discerning.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Just because someone says that they are born again, does not mean that it is true.

As Christians, we are supposed to separate ourselves from those who are apostate or heretical in their beliefs after they have been given an opportunity to repent and refuse to do so.

2 Corinthians 6:14-17 King James Version
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
I agree that Church discipline is important and excommunication a valid means by which to get wayward Christians to repent and return to the flock. I don't think it's a blanket rule though, that you separate from people who are different from you regarding faith (I'm not sure if this is what you meant), and Paul himself notes in 1 Corinthians that a Christian shouldn't separate from her/his unbelieving spouse just because of religious differences.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
are all catholic priests eunuchs?

12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
Obviously, we're not talking about being literally eunuchs. Not all Catholic priests are celibate and unmarried; it's a discipline that can be changed and varies depending on the rite.
 

mica

Well-known member
I agree that Church discipline is important and excommunication a valid means by which to get wayward Christians to repent and return to the flock. I don't think it's a blanket rule though, that you separate from people who are different from you regarding faith (I'm not sure if this is what you meant), and Paul himself notes in 1 Corinthians that a Christian shouldn't separate from her/his unbelieving spouse just because of religious differences.
it isn't a reason to divorce. but a believer isn't supposed to marry an unbeliever anyway. It does happen often enough that in a marriage between 2 unbelievers, 1 will be saved and the other not.
 

mica

Well-known member
Obviously, we're not talking about being literally eunuchs. Not all Catholic priests are celibate and unmarried; it's a discipline that can be changed and varies depending on the rite.
what was a non literal eunuch in NT time?

that's a more recent change made by the RCC. In the past they took vows of celibacy. Has that been dropped in more recent times? (like since Vat II) or is it just one more vow they don't bother to keep? and probably had no intention of keeping.
 

balshan

Well-known member
what was a non literal eunuch in NT time?

that's a more recent change made by the RCC. In the past they took vows of celibacy. Has that been dropped in more recent times? (like since Vat II) or is it just one more vow they don't bother to keep? and probably had no intention of keeping.
Well the vow is obviously not kept by some, as they have been known to sleep with nuns throughout the centuries, have children with parishioners etc.
 

balshan

Well-known member
I agree that Church discipline is important and excommunication a valid means by which to get wayward Christians to repent and return to the flock. I don't think it's a blanket rule though, that you separate from people who are different from you regarding faith (I'm not sure if this is what you meant), and Paul himself notes in 1 Corinthians that a Christian shouldn't separate from her/his unbelieving spouse just because of religious differences.
Interesting as one reason for annulment is that the couple did not marry in a RC ceremony.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
it isn't a reason to divorce. but a believer isn't supposed to marry an unbeliever anyway. It does happen often enough that in a marriage between 2 unbelievers, 1 will be saved and the other not.
It's true that disparity of cult isn't a good idea and can make a marriage more difficult; however, I think a good marriage depends equally on the love and character of the spouses, so that it can be made to work.
 

mica

Well-known member
mica said:
it isn't a reason to divorce. but a believer isn't supposed to marry an unbeliever anyway. It does happen often enough that in a marriage between 2 unbelievers, 1 will be saved and the other not.

It's true that disparity of cult isn't a good idea and can make a marriage more difficult; however, I think a good marriage depends equally on the love and character of the spouses, so that it can be made to work.
iow to you it doesn't matter what scripture says about marriage...
 

Nondenom40

Super Member
Okay, let's look at these qualities and see which of them Francis is violating:
- faithful to his wife; I'd say Francis is very faithful to the Church considering that he has given his life for her
- temperate; I've never seen him go off the rails, rant, get drunk or anything like that
- self-controlled; he seems pretty self-controlled to me
- respectable; I'd say he's respectable
- hospital; lots of evidence of his hospitality to those who visit the Vatican
- able to teach; while he's not the clearest or most precise theologian in the world, his teaching is generally fine
- not given to drunkenness, violent or quarrelsome; see above
- not a lover of money; if anything, Francis has made papal living more frugal than any recent pope
- manage his own family well; I think this is something he tries to do
- not a recent convert; obviously
- good reputation with outsiders; his reputation is excellent with outsiders
Francis's wife is the church? Other than being blasphemy that is nowhere near the context of that verse in regards to bishops. Paul never hinted that a bishops wife is the church. Jesus is the bridegroom, the church is HIS bride.
 

illini1959

Member
I think that because everyone claiming to be "born again" can't agree with each other on fundamental doctrines and practices of the faith. The conditions set down for the Church in scripture include things like unity, hierarchy, able to settle disputes, etc., which if by Church we mean "set of all born-again believers and followers of Jesus Christ" it doesn't fit.
So I don't misunderstand what you're saying - are you saying that the church is not "set of all born-again believers and followers of Jesus Christ"?

Or am I not seeing what you mean?
 

mica

Well-known member
jonathan_hili said:
Okay, let's look at these qualities and see which of them Francis is violating:
- faithful to his wife; I'd say Francis is very faithful to the Church considering that he has given his life for her
...

Francis's wife is the church? Other than being blasphemy that is nowhere near the context of that verse in regards to bishops. Paul never hinted that a bishops wife is the church. Jesus is the bridegroom, the church is HIS bride.
that stood out to me also. the bishop is the husband of 'mother church' ? another attempt to claim to be Christ?

a false Christ with a cheating spouse? and he's one of those who taught and encouraged 'her' to be a cheater.
 

Nondenom40

Super Member
that stood out to me also. the bishop is the husband of 'mother church' ? another attempt to claim to be Christ?

a false Christ with a cheating spouse? and he's one of those who taught and encouraged 'her' to be a cheater.
I know. I can't believe they write some of this stuff. If the pope is the husband to the wife (church), thats nothing more than usurping the position Christ holds and claiming it for itself. And if this pope is the hubby to the bride/church then every pope has been a husband to the church making her no virgin bride for Jesus huh? I'm guessing a lot of the time they don't really think before they write.
 

leonard03782

Well-known member
Okay, let's look at these qualities and see which of them Francis is violating:
- faithful to his wife; I'd say Francis is very faithful to the Church considering that he has
Sooo, IF rc's are really Christian's, they are committing adultery, bigamy, or are cheating with the pope considering the fact that they are betrothed to Jesus.
 

mica

Well-known member
I know. I can't believe they write some of this stuff. If the pope is the husband to the wife (church), thats nothing more than usurping the position Christ holds and claiming it for itself. And if this pope is the hubby to the bride/church then every pope has been a husband to the church making her no virgin bride for Jesus huh? I'm guessing a lot of the time they don't really think before they write.
their religious leader / teacher is corrupt, so their beliefs and thought process are also.

most are indoctrinated with this stuff as babies and then all thru out their formative years - to the point that it is almost impossible for them to think for themselves. When it comes to scripture they can't think outside of the 'catholic box '.

another day of catholics posts that again cause me to thank God for drawing me out of it! I am truly blessed in that.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
iow to you it doesn't matter what scripture says about marriage...
Sure it does, that's why I noted first how difficult such differences can be. However, I also think they aren't the be-all-end-all and the character and selflessness of the spouses can be very important too.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Francis's wife is the church? Other than being blasphemy that is nowhere near the context of that verse in regards to bishops. Paul never hinted that a bishops wife is the church. Jesus is the bridegroom, the church is HIS bride.
No, not really but like all priest's he's kind of married to the Church - in the same way you might say that some is "married to their job", i.e., totally devoted.
 
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