What is the Church for?

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
So I don't misunderstand what you're saying - are you saying that the church is not "set of all born-again believers and followers of Jesus Christ"?

Or am I not seeing what you mean?
Sorry, I should be clearer. It is such a set but not just such a set, that is: "all born-again believers and followers of Jesus Christ" is a necessary condition of the Church but not a sufficient condition (you need more).
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Sooo, IF rc's are really Christian's, they are committing adultery, bigamy, or are cheating with the pope considering the fact that they are betrothed to Jesus.
It was a figure of speech because he is devoted to the Church community, like saying someone is "married to their job".
 

balshan

Well-known member
It was a figure of speech because he is devoted to the Church community, like saying someone is "married to their job".
No it wasn't we were discussing the requirements set out in Tim and Titus for leaders in the church. You were saying that the Pope met those standards and the one which said married to one wife was met because the pope was married to the Church. Which let us be honest is really Christ position He is married to the church, He is head of the church. Your pope is not and does not meet the requirements set out in the NT for a leader.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
No it wasn't we were discussing the requirements set out in Tim and Titus for leaders in the church. You were saying that the Pope met those standards and the one which said married to one wife was met because the pope was married to the Church. Which let us be honest is really Christ position He is married to the church, He is head of the church. Your pope is not and does not meet the requirements set out in the NT for a leader.
I think the emphasis in Titus and Timothy is that a bishop should only have one wife rather than be polygamous or divorce and re-marry (which is the way the Orthodox Church takes it). Francis' devotion to the Church is analogous to this.
 

mica

Well-known member
I think the emphasis in Titus and Timothy is that a bishop should only have one wife rather than be polygamous or divorce and re-marry (which is the way the Orthodox Church takes it). Francis' devotion to the Church is analogous to this.
then his devotion is to a false 'church'... not to Christ.
 

balshan

Well-known member
I think the emphasis in Titus and Timothy is that a bishop should only have one wife rather than be polygamous or divorce and re-marry (which is the way the Orthodox Church takes it). Francis' devotion to the Church is analogous to this.
No it isn't. Trying so hard to twist what the scriptures are telling us. Trying to justify your institution discipline of ignoring scripture and following a false path. It never says they are to be unmarried.
 

illini1959

Member
Sorry, I should be clearer. It is such a set but not just such a set, that is: "all born-again believers and followers of Jesus Christ" is a necessary condition of the Church but not a sufficient condition (you need more).
Thank you.

Scripture says otherwise and is very clear on what constitutes the church.

It's a new version of the board so even though this has been posted to death, let me show you what I mean.

The body is the church -

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church....

Who makes up that body? -

1 Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

That's it. Believers make up the church.

What else is required?
 

mica

Well-known member
I think that because everyone claiming to be "born again" can't agree with each other on fundamental doctrines and practices of the faith. The conditions set down for the Church in scripture include things like unity, hierarchy, able to settle disputes, etc.,
yes, those who are born again do agree on these things. if they don't then they're signaling that they aren't born again. Many catholics claim to be born again but also don't agree on these things biblically, but then they also think they're born again when they're water baptized. If they were born again they'd know that isn't how it happened.


which if by Church we mean "set of all born-again believers and followers of Jesus Christ" it doesn't fit.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
No it isn't. Trying so hard to twist what the scriptures are telling us. Trying to justify your institution discipline of ignoring scripture and following a false path. It never says they are to be unmarried.
Okay, can you explain why "one wife" (μιᾶς γυναικὸς), which is a very odd expression (rather than writing "a wife") is used? Or, more specifically, why it would be a misinterpretation to think "one wife" means "not polygamous or divorced and remarried"?
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Thank you.

Scripture says otherwise and is very clear on what constitutes the church.

It's a new version of the board so even though this has been posted to death, let me show you what I mean.

The body is the church -

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church....

Who makes up that body? -

1 Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

That's it. Believers make up the church.

What else is required?
I agree that believers make up the Church. What else is required? Structure. In every group that has some kind of human existence, we see authority structures involved. And we see that in scripture: Jesus establishes a hierarchy amongst his disciples, and then we see hierarchal positions in the early Church (overseer, presbyter, deacon). Secondly, there is some kind of visible unity, so you know which Church is legit and which isn't. Jesus said, for instance, that when we have disputes we take them to the Church. Sure, but which Church? I'd say those to elements: authority structure and visible unity are also necessary conditions of the Church.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
yes, those who are born again do agree on these things. if they don't then they're signaling that they aren't born again. Many catholics claim to be born again but also don't agree on these things biblically, but then they also think they're born again when they're water baptized. If they were born again they'd know that isn't how it happened.
But the people who disagree about fundamental doctrines think they are born again! I mean, some Christians believe in free will, some do not; some believe in baptismal regeneration, some do not; some believer in the wrongness of divorce and remarriage, abortion and use of contraception, some do not; some believe in Canon A, some believe in Canon B... and so on. If we are to judge for ourselves who is born again (since there is no legitimate hierarchal structure in the Church to do so), then it's every Christian for herself since she believes she's born again.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Okay, can you explain why "one wife" (μιᾶς γυναικὸς), which is a very odd expression (rather than writing "a wife") is used? Or, more specifically, why it would be a misinterpretation to think "one wife" means "not polygamous or divorced and remarried"?
To me it is not an odd expression. But either way it does not mean not married at all.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
I think establishing the Church was central because if there was no Church to minister to the world, belief in Jesus would have ceased within one or two generations.
Not true at all. The Holy Spirit is there whether there's "Visible Church" at all, and it's the HOLY SPIRIT that does the work of convicting folks of their SIN, and gifting them with the FAITH to trust in the SIN OFFERING of Christ that Cleanses them from SIN. The primary function of The CATHOLIC organization has been to corrupt their victims and move them AWAY FROM the simplicity of the Gospel, and introduce PAGAN concepts, and worthless RITUALS instead of maintaining the BIBLICAL GOSPEL by which lost humanity can be saved. TRUE there are people to become Born Again by the power of God IN SPITE of Catholic mis-direction.
 

balshan

Well-known member
True but it could include not having to marry if it is about polygamy or divorce and remarriage.
Only if you are an RC trying desperately to justify not having married priests. By the way remarriage still means only 1 wife. Once divorced or dead they are no longer married to the person.

If there were more married RC priest then you could say you are not forbidding marriage but no for the majority it is celibracy. By the way it does not say they have to be single either.

Your argument has is no shifting sands.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Only if you are an RC trying desperately to justify not having married priests. By the way remarriage still means only 1 wife. Once divorced or dead they are no longer married to the person.

If there were more married RC priest then you could say you are not forbidding marriage but no for the majority it is celibracy. By the way it does not say they have to be single either.

Your argument has is no shifting sands.
As I noted, there are already married Catholic priests.

And I think it's a legitimate interpretation - it's one Protestants make too - since the expression "one wife" is really odd. I mean, if I was married, I wouldn't say to people, "Oh I have one wife" but "Oh I have a wife".

The faith has never accepted divorce and remarriage. Perhaps that is what Paul is alluding to.
 
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