What is the correct literal rendition and context of Pro 24:21?

C

cjab

Well-known member
יְרָֽא־אֶת־יְהוָה בְּנִי וָמֶלֶךְ עִם־שׁוֹנִים
אַל־תִּתְעָרָֽב׃
(Heb)

φοβοῦ τὸν θεόν υἱέ καὶ βασιλέα καὶ μηθετέρῳ αὐτῶν ἀπειθήσῃς (LXX)

Here is a selection of conflicting translations. I've no idea which is right.

New International Version
Fear the LORD and the king, my son, and do not join with rebellious officials,

Revised Standard Version
My son, fear the LORD and the king, and do not disobey either of them;

NET
Fear the LORD, my child, as well as the king, and do not associate with rebels,

English Standard Version
My son, fear the LORD and the king, and do not join with those who do otherwise,

King James Bible
My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:

New American Standard Bible
My son, fear the LORD and the king; Do not get involved with those of high rank,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Stand in awe, my son, of LORD JEHOVAH, and give counsel, and do not mingle with fools.

Contemporary English Version
My children, you must respect the LORD and the king, and you must not make friends with anyone who rebels against either of them.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Fear the LORD, my son. Fear the king as well. Do not associate with those who always insist upon change,
 
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John Milton said:
Well, which parts are you sure of? You sure have pretended to have a great deal of certainty about the verse before.

This is rhetorical. Everyone knows by now that you don't actually care what a verse says if it doesn't match your theology.
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I do not regard you or your sidekick "Fred" as qualified to engage, given you elect to ignore the OP and the translation discrepancies as your opening gambit. This thread is for people who can offer some expertise or insight into the original languages.
 
John Milton said:
Then what are you doing here?
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Why not get lost as you don't seem to want to answer this thread? Carm rules:

Attacking people:
  1. No name-calling, insults, or mockery of a board poster/member.
It's pretty bad when attacking people is your opening gambit.
 
cjab said:
Why not get lost as you don't seem to want to answer this thread? Carm rules:

Attacking people:
  1. No name-calling, insults, or mockery of a board poster/member.
It's pretty bad when attacking people is your opening gambit.
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I didn't attack you. I stated a fact. You don't know the language and therefore have no "expertise or insight into the original languages" to contribute. Why is this confusing to you?
 
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Stand in awe, my son, of LORD JEHOVAH, and give counsel,
and do not mingle with fools.

Ecc.10:2
Like dead flies putrefy a vessel of sweet oil, a little foolishness is weightier than wisdom and than great glory
2The heart of the wise is at his right hand and the heart of a fool at his left
3And also a fool whenever he goes on the road, lacks his heart, and all that he thinks is foolishness
4If the spirit of a prince rises against you, do not leave your place, because healing dissolves many sins

Ecc. 10:2
Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour:
so doth a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom and honour.

2 A wise man's heart is at his right hand;
but a fool's heart at his left.

And with him they crucify two thieves;
the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
..
And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him,
saying,
If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying,
Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds:
but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus,
Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him,
Verily I say unto thee,
Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
​

And with him they crucify two thieves;
the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
Which Malefactor was on the Right ???????

ahhh Yes; Politics
Yea also, when he that is a fool walketh by the way,
his wisdom faileth him, and he saith to every one that he is a fool.

4 If the spirit of the ruler rise up against thee,
leave not thy place; for yielding pacifieth great offences.
 
cjab said:
יְרָֽא־אֶת־יְהוָה בְּנִי וָמֶלֶךְ עִם־שׁוֹנִים
אַל־תִּתְעָרָֽב׃
(Heb)

φοβοῦ τὸν θεόν υἱέ καὶ βασιλέα καὶ μηθετέρῳ αὐτῶν ἀπειθήσῃς (LXX)

Here is a selection of conflicting translations. I've no idea which is right.

New International Version
Fear the LORD and the king, my son, and do not join with rebellious officials,

Revised Standard Version
My son, fear the LORD and the king, and do not disobey either of them;

NET
Fear the LORD, my child, as well as the king, and do not associate with rebels,

English Standard Version
My son, fear the LORD and the king, and do not join with those who do otherwise,

King James Bible
My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:

New American Standard Bible
My son, fear the LORD and the king; Do not get involved with those of high rank,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Stand in awe, my son, of LORD JEHOVAH, and give counsel, and do not mingle with fools.

Contemporary English Version
My children, you must respect the LORD and the king, and you must not make friends with anyone who rebels against either of them.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Fear the LORD, my son. Fear the king as well. Do not associate with those who always insist upon change,
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They are all right, since none of them seem to subscribe to the notion that God and the King are the same person.
 
The Real John Milton said:
They are all right, since none of them seem to subscribe to the notion that God and the King are the same person.
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I think the Aramaic version "Lord Jehova" is the exception. What is interesting here are several things.

(1) The LXX translation is quite straightforward "Fear God, O son, and [the] King and to neither one of them should you resist persuasion [or should you disbelieve]" but this hardly reflects the litany of English translations which follow the Vulgate, talking about detractors, rebels, intermeddling, those of high rank, fools and such like. Why the discrepancy between the English versions translated from the Hebrew, and the LXX, in the second part of the sentence?

(2) Why is τον θεον used here, instead of the usual τον κυριον, to transpose יְהוָה?

Someone has suggested a specific contextual reason, which is to distinguish θεον from βασιλέα. For if κυριον had been used, it might have been supposed that they were one and the same person, even with a double article!

Presumably the LXX translaters didn't feel article usage alone was emphatic enough to distinguish βασιλέα from κυριον, where κυριον a common title for βασιλέα; but they also felt that having used θεον, there was no need for a second article to distinguish θεον from βασιλέα (irrespective of Sharp's rule).

This suggests something profoung about Sharp's rule: that wherever the two persons are obviously different, a TSKS construction is permitted.

Hence this passage could be seen as authority for using θεός to distinguish יְהוָה from other (human) kings and lords: a convention afterwards adopted in the NT by John, Paul. Jude etc and perhaps a convention that arose with the need to develop a precise apostolic theology.
 
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cjab said:
I think the Aramaic version "Lord Jehova" is the exception. What is interesting here are several things.

(2) Why is τον θεον used here, instead of the usual τον κυριον, to transpose יְהוָה?

Someone has suggested a specific contextual reason, which is to distinguish θεον from βασιλέα. For if κυριον had been used, it might have been supposed that they were one and the same person, even with a double article!

Presumably the LXX translaters didn't feel article usage alone was emphatic enough to distinguish βασιλέα from κυριον, where κυριον a common title for βασιλέα; but they also felt that having used θεον, there was no need for a second article to distinguish θεον from βασιλέα (irrespective of Sharp's rule).

This suggests something profoung about Sharp's rule: that wherever the two persons are obviously different, a TSKS construction is permitted.

Hence this passage could be seen as authority for using θεός to distinguish יְהוָה from other (human) kings and lords: a convention afterwards adopted in the NT by John, Paul. Jude etc and perhaps a convention that arose with the need to develop a precise apostolic theology.
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Good question. The answer to me seems obvious. It is because the translator viewed τὸν θεόν (Θεὸς with the article) as the functional equivalent of God’s name (namely יְהוָה). To be sure, τον κυριον too functions as such. The translator could use either.

This suggests something profoung about Sharp's rule: that wherever the two persons are obviously different, a TSKS construction is permitted.
Click to expand...
This seems like a circular argument which invalidates the rule itself. No, there are no self-serving so-called “exceptions.” The reason why the TSKS is ok here is because τὸν θεόν functions as a proper name.
 
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The last word is translated in the Aramaic Targum and in the Syriac as "fools". The Hebrew word appears only here and has to be guessed at.
 
I made a mistake. The word in question is not unique but it is a unique form of the word for different or change. Strong's 8138. The Brown-Driver-Briggs lexicon (p. 1040, col. 1) translates Prov 24:21 as those who change but immediately adds a note that this rendering has been doubted. My supposition is the verse means: Fear the LORD and the king and have nothing to do with people who want either a different God or a different king.
 
The verbs are incorrectly translated by the Septuagint and therefore English translations.

The initial verb ירא should be τρόμου and תתערב is συγκεραννὺς

τρομέω - with acc; tremble before or at a person, stand in awe of
συγκεράννυμι - of persons, to be closely attached to, be close friends with

The Septuagint uses φοβέω for ירא פחד אימה , thus the distinction is lost. cf. τρέω/ירא φοβέω/פחד δειματόω/אימה
 
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