what is the definition of science?

SteveB

Well-known member
Evidence only available after one believes is not valid evidence.
Actually it is.

Not everyone is a physicist, chemist, engineer, mathematician, etc...., so to those who don't do the research and investigation into the sciences, will never get the empirical evidence that they scientific community gets, by virtue of their work.
That doesn't mean that such evidence does not exist.
It does however mean that those not engaged in the work will not know.

So, you can either get off your derriere and do what Jesus said, or you can continue to whine about your failures to do what we do, and failure to get what we get.

Those who become scientists had to believe they could be scientists and were tested all along the way, experienced their doubts, questions, had to do the same work as their professors before them. They had to follow instructions, and then use the precepts and principles taught them.

Those who didn't quit, or disqualify themselves, when they reached the end of their instruction and education were identified by the scientific community as scientists, in their respective fields.

In like manner, those who do what Jesus said, learn the precepts and principles, survive the testings, and succeed, they will be identified by Jesus as his followers.

It's your choice.
Whining about it will only exclude you from knowing the truth.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Actually it is.
No, it isn't. It's subjective and the product of confirmation bias. Real objective evidence for X is that which can be recognized as evidence without first believing in X.

Not everyone is a physicist, chemist, engineer, mathematician, etc...., so to those who don't do the research and investigation into the sciences, will never get the empirical evidence that they scientific community gets, by virtue of their work.
That doesn't mean that such evidence does not exist. It does however mean that those not engaged in the work will not know.
Obvious bait & switch. I didn't object to evidence requiring prior work and research. I objected to the notion of evidence requiring prior BELIEF.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
No, it isn't. It's subjective and the product of confirmation bias. Real objective evidence for X is that which can be recognized as evidence without first believing in X.


Obvious bait & switch. I didn't object to evidence requiring prior work and research. I objected to the notion of evidence requiring prior BELIEF.
Sounds like you only want to excuse yourself from knowing the truth.
That's a you problem.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Sounds like you only want to excuse yourself from knowing the truth.
That's a you problem.
You're just evading again, which is no surprise to anyone.

Again, evidence only available after one believes is not valid evidence.
 

J regia

Well-known member
Read the gospel of Matthew and Luke.
But do you have any actual evidence that Heli's son was Jesus' biological father (Luke 3), given that maternity is a matter of fact, whereas paternity is just a matter of opinion without a reliable paternity test?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
You're just evading again, which is no surprise to anyone.

Again, evidence only available after one believes is not valid evidence.
There came a point a while ago that I came to realize you're not interested in actual discussion. You only want to silence what you find inconvenient to your desires.
You've been given the gospel. You've been detailed in numerous ways, repeatedly, what you need to do in order to know God.
You've "poo-pooed" everything you've been told. Thus, what's left to "discuss"?
Nothing you want to know.
At this point, you've turned yourself into nothing more than a troll.
If you ever decide to actually do what Jesus said, He's more than capable of clearing up the problems you have.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
But do you have any actual evidence that Heli's son was Jesus' biological father (Luke 3), given that maternity is a matter of fact, whereas paternity is just a matter of opinion without a reliable paternity test?
I suppose you're going to have to do the research yourself, so you can actually know for yourself, instead of being forced to take the word of strangers, whom you don't want to believe in the first place. Besides, isn't that what you actually want? To know for yourself?
 

The Pixie

Active member
So why does the bible falsely describe Earth as a flat immovable disc, and the universe as a tent (Isaiah 40:22) instead of a rotating globe orbiting the sun, and that the universe is billions of years old?
It doesn't. You believed something that somebody who had no idea what they were talking about.
So.... instead of believing what you think it says, try learning what it actually says.
This is a common problem, and it's proven falsely perceived by many.
It absolutely does!

Let us start by looking at Genesis 1, and seeing how it confirms the flat Earth cosmology (FEC).

Genesis 1: 6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Genesis 1:14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons,[f] and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.

The whole of the first chapter of the Bible makes sense in a FEC, but I have selected these verses for brevity.

Genesis starts with God dividing the waters above from the waters below. In FEC, the waters below are what lies under the world - they supply water to the fountains of the deep during the Flood. The waters above exist over the firmament, and that is where rain comes from.

Note that prior to God creating the sun, there was already day and night - the sun is just a little thing that marks the time, not the thing that provides daylight. Remember, God has already made all the plants before he creates the sun, and they flourish fine in the daylight before the sun is there.

More importantly, God created the world first, then set the sun and stars about it. The Earth is at the centre of the system. Note that God creates the firmament before he places the sun, moon and stars there (many modern Bibles use "expanse" rather than firmament, presumably because the Apollo rockets failed to collide with a firmament; I have quoted KJV). In modern cosmology, the Earth orbits the sun, so it would have to be created after the sun.

Other verses:

Genesis 8:2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;

In the Hebrew it says the rain stopped when God closed the "arubbah" - a lattice, window or sluice. Makes sense if the sky is a solid structure. The fountains of the deep were supplied by the "waters below".

Joshua 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. 13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

God stops the sun and the moon. A relatively trivial task when these are merely objects that mark time by travelling across the firmament. The alternative is that God stopped the rotation of the Earth - possible if you are all-powerful, but rather more involved.

1 Samuel 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he hath set the world upon them.

Consistent with FEC again.

1 Kings 8:35 When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou afflictest them:

Again this idea that it rains when holes are opened in the firmament.

2 Kings 20:9 And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the Lord, that the Lord will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?

Again God can move the sun around the firmament with ease. The Hebrew seems to translate better to steps, by the way, rather than suggest 10°.

1 Chronicles 16:30 Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

The Earth is stationary.

Job 9:6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.

The Earth stands on pillars. Job provides numerous references to a flat Earth, and some Christians will say that these are someone offering his own opinion and not God speaking - just because Job believed the world was flat it does not mean the Bible promotes that belief. I think there is sufficient evidence throughout the rest of the Bible to refute that claim.

Job 37:18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?

There is that firmament again.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

And the stationary Earth again.

Job 38:13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it?

God can take a hold of the circular Earth by its edges and shake it so that the wicked will fall off the edge!

Job 38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

God has warehouses above the firmament where he stores hail and snow ready for when he wants it to fall.

Psalm 19:4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

The sun goes around the Earth. A common objection to the flat Earth cosmology is that the authors were merely using colourful or poetic language, and did not really mean that the Earth stands on pillars or whatever. I think this is one occasion where that is actually valid, though I include it for completeness.

Psalm 74:17 Thou hast set all the borders of the earth: thou hast made summer and winter.

A flat Earth has a border around it, set by God.

Psalm 75:3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.

More on those pillars.

Psalm 82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

The Earth stands on foundations.

Psalm 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved. 6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.

The Earth, immobile on its foundations. The second verse looks like a reference to the waters above the firmament - where the rain comes from, and mentioned right at the start of Genesis 1.
 

The Pixie

Active member
It doesn't. You believed something that somebody who had no idea what they were talking about.
So.... instead of believing what you think it says, try learning what it actually says.
This is a common problem, and it's proven falsely perceived by many.
There is more:

Proverbs 8:28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established[d] the fountains of the deep,

Made firm the skies? That has to be the solid firmament.

Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

The moon does not shine, it reflects the light of the sun. In the FEC, that is not possible - the sun is hidden away at night - so in this scenario the moon produces light just as the sun does, albeit less brightly.

Isaiah 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

Again, God can readily move the sun back and forth across the firmament.

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

The world is a flat circle, and God created a firmament over it to protect just as a tent protects (an appropriate simile for nomads). Curiously, some Christians actually use this to argue that the Bible promotes a spherical Earth (eg here). According to one apologist, there is no Hebrew word specifically for sphere, so perhaps we should say this is ambiguous either way.

Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

The foundations again.

Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

And again.

Daniel 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

A mountain that fills the Earth is only possible if the world is flat.

Daniel 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

The stars are little things, so small one might stamp on one if it fell off the firmament. In fairness, this was seen in a dream, and is only included for completeness.

Micah 6:2 Hear ye, O mountains, the Lord's controversy, and ye strong foundations of the earth: for the Lord hath a controversy with his people, and he will plead with Israel.

The foundations again.

Matthew 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
The whole star that led the wise men to Jesus makes sense in a FEC. The star is just a point of light in the firmament, no reason at all it should not sit exactly over Bethlehem. In modern cosmology, an astral body would have to be in a geostationary orbit to hold the same position, and that is only possible over a point on the equator.

The pole star keeps its position over the north pole, and my well have been the inspiration here. However, it is hard to imagine how a star - or even a satellite in geostationary orbit, more than 22,000 miles above your head - could be followed to a specific location on Earth. However, if this is a point on the firmament, perhaps just a few score miles high, this becomes more reasonable.

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

The only way it would be possible to see all the kingdoms of the world at once is if the Earth is flat. Of course, you could claim it means only the known world, but it does not say that. The Greek word is "κόσμος" or kosmos, meaning world or universe (and we get the word "cosmos" from it of course).

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

In the FEC the moon shines just as the sun does, and the stars are little things that might become unstuck from the firmament to fall to the ground.

Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Foundations again.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

The author here is referring to how the world exists between the waters below and the waters above, which were used to cause the Great Flood..

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This is only possible if the world is flat, though it could be understood to mean that God will arrive from all directions at once (being omnipresent), so is not that persuasive, and is included for completeness.

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Stars coming unstuck from the firmament again.

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

This would seem to indicate that the author believed the world was a quadrilateral (eg a square), though it may be the "corner" means quadrant or border. Some apologists say it means compass points - which I find convincing as it makes sense in connection with the winds.

But this also points to a flat world! Exactly where do the angels at east and west stand on a sphere? Wherever they are, they can still go further. It does make sense if the planet is flat, as the flat earth has a point that is furthest west and one that is furthest east.

It must be acknowledged that "the corners of the Earth" is a phrase still used today, but this is a hang-over from when people believed in a flat Earth, and probably only still in use because it is in the Bible.

Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

More stars becomes unstuck from the firmament.

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

So over to you, Steve. Where are the verses that get it right?
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
There came a point a while ago that I came to realize you're not interested in actual discussion. You only want to silence what you find inconvenient to your desires.
You've been given the gospel. You've been detailed in numerous ways, repeatedly, what you need to do in order to know God.
You've "poo-pooed" everything you've been told. Thus, what's left to "discuss"?
Nothing you want to know.
At this point, you've turned yourself into nothing more than a troll.
If you ever decide to actually do what Jesus said, He's more than capable of clearing up the problems you have.
If you were interested in discussion then you'd try addressing what I said instead of evading as you've done here. Try addressing the point instead of the person. There is plenty to discuss when it comes to the reasons why your method doesn't work. If you're actually willing to discuss it, that is. It would require you to do more than strawman me and decide I'm a troll for daring to disagree with you.
 

J regia

Well-known member
I suppose you're going to have to do the research yourself, so you can actually know for yourself, instead of being forced to take the word of strangers, whom you don't want to believe in the first place. Besides, isn't that what you actually want? To know for yourself?
IOW Heli's son was Jesus' biological father unless it can be proved otherwise (Luke 3:23). And it's your choice if you don't believe what the bible actually says and just make up your own fantasies.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
It absolutely does!

Let us start by looking at Genesis 1, and seeing how it confirms the flat Earth cosmology (FEC).

Genesis 1: 6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Genesis 1:14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons,[f] and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.

The whole of the first chapter of the Bible makes sense in a FEC, but I have selected these verses for brevity.

Genesis starts with God dividing the waters above from the waters below. In FEC, the waters below are what lies under the world - they supply water to the fountains of the deep during the Flood. The waters above exist over the firmament, and that is where rain comes from.

Note that prior to God creating the sun, there was already day and night - the sun is just a little thing that marks the time, not the thing that provides daylight. Remember, God has already made all the plants before he creates the sun, and they flourish fine in the daylight before the sun is there.

More importantly, God created the world first, then set the sun and stars about it. The Earth is at the centre of the system. Note that God creates the firmament before he places the sun, moon and stars there (many modern Bibles use "expanse" rather than firmament, presumably because the Apollo rockets failed to collide with a firmament; I have quoted KJV). In modern cosmology, the Earth orbits the sun, so it would have to be created after the sun.

Other verses:

Genesis 8:2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;

In the Hebrew it says the rain stopped when God closed the "arubbah" - a lattice, window or sluice. Makes sense if the sky is a solid structure. The fountains of the deep were supplied by the "waters below".

Joshua 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. 13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

God stops the sun and the moon. A relatively trivial task when these are merely objects that mark time by travelling across the firmament. The alternative is that God stopped the rotation of the Earth - possible if you are all-powerful, but rather more involved.

1 Samuel 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he hath set the world upon them.

Consistent with FEC again.

1 Kings 8:35 When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou afflictest them:

Again this idea that it rains when holes are opened in the firmament.

2 Kings 20:9 And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the Lord, that the Lord will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?

Again God can move the sun around the firmament with ease. The Hebrew seems to translate better to steps, by the way, rather than suggest 10°.

1 Chronicles 16:30 Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

The Earth is stationary.

Job 9:6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.

The Earth stands on pillars. Job provides numerous references to a flat Earth, and some Christians will say that these are someone offering his own opinion and not God speaking - just because Job believed the world was flat it does not mean the Bible promotes that belief. I think there is sufficient evidence throughout the rest of the Bible to refute that claim.

Job 37:18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?

There is that firmament again.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

And the stationary Earth again.

Job 38:13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it?

God can take a hold of the circular Earth by its edges and shake it so that the wicked will fall off the edge!

Job 38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

God has warehouses above the firmament where he stores hail and snow ready for when he wants it to fall.

Psalm 19:4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

The sun goes around the Earth. A common objection to the flat Earth cosmology is that the authors were merely using colourful or poetic language, and did not really mean that the Earth stands on pillars or whatever. I think this is one occasion where that is actually valid, though I include it for completeness.

Psalm 74:17 Thou hast set all the borders of the earth: thou hast made summer and winter.

A flat Earth has a border around it, set by God.

Psalm 75:3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.

More on those pillars.

Psalm 82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

The Earth stands on foundations.

Psalm 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved. 6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.

The Earth, immobile on its foundations. The second verse looks like a reference to the waters above the firmament - where the rain comes from, and mentioned right at the start of Genesis 1.
You are indeed entitled to your opinions.
I'm sure glad I never paid attention to your ideologies. We'd still be back in the inquisition. Although, as I understand it, a new inquisition is coming, and it'll be the atheists who head it up.



I do have to say though, it'll be interesting to watch atheists stumble all over themselves to fight against themselves, in their support of freedom, and liberty for everyone except those whom they despise.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
There is more:

Proverbs 8:28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established[d] the fountains of the deep,

Made firm the skies? That has to be the solid firmament.

Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

The moon does not shine, it reflects the light of the sun. In the FEC, that is not possible - the sun is hidden away at night - so in this scenario the moon produces light just as the sun does, albeit less brightly.

Isaiah 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

Again, God can readily move the sun back and forth across the firmament.

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

The world is a flat circle, and God created a firmament over it to protect just as a tent protects (an appropriate simile for nomads). Curiously, some Christians actually use this to argue that the Bible promotes a spherical Earth (eg here). According to one apologist, there is no Hebrew word specifically for sphere, so perhaps we should say this is ambiguous either way.

Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

The foundations again.

Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

And again.

Daniel 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

A mountain that fills the Earth is only possible if the world is flat.

Daniel 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

The stars are little things, so small one might stamp on one if it fell off the firmament. In fairness, this was seen in a dream, and is only included for completeness.

Micah 6:2 Hear ye, O mountains, the Lord's controversy, and ye strong foundations of the earth: for the Lord hath a controversy with his people, and he will plead with Israel.

The foundations again.

Matthew 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
The whole star that led the wise men to Jesus makes sense in a FEC. The star is just a point of light in the firmament, no reason at all it should not sit exactly over Bethlehem. In modern cosmology, an astral body would have to be in a geostationary orbit to hold the same position, and that is only possible over a point on the equator.

The pole star keeps its position over the north pole, and my well have been the inspiration here. However, it is hard to imagine how a star - or even a satellite in geostationary orbit, more than 22,000 miles above your head - could be followed to a specific location on Earth. However, if this is a point on the firmament, perhaps just a few score miles high, this becomes more reasonable.

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

The only way it would be possible to see all the kingdoms of the world at once is if the Earth is flat. Of course, you could claim it means only the known world, but it does not say that. The Greek word is "κόσμος" or kosmos, meaning world or universe (and we get the word "cosmos" from it of course).

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

In the FEC the moon shines just as the sun does, and the stars are little things that might become unstuck from the firmament to fall to the ground.

Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Foundations again.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

The author here is referring to how the world exists between the waters below and the waters above, which were used to cause the Great Flood..

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This is only possible if the world is flat, though it could be understood to mean that God will arrive from all directions at once (being omnipresent), so is not that persuasive, and is included for completeness.

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Stars coming unstuck from the firmament again.

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

This would seem to indicate that the author believed the world was a quadrilateral (eg a square), though it may be the "corner" means quadrant or border. Some apologists say it means compass points - which I find convincing as it makes sense in connection with the winds.

But this also points to a flat world! Exactly where do the angels at east and west stand on a sphere? Wherever they are, they can still go further. It does make sense if the planet is flat, as the flat earth has a point that is furthest west and one that is furthest east.

It must be acknowledged that "the corners of the Earth" is a phrase still used today, but this is a hang-over from when people believed in a flat Earth, and probably only still in use because it is in the Bible.

Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

More stars becomes unstuck from the firmament.

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

So over to you, Steve. Where are the verses that get it right?
Wow..... if every there was a post filled to the hilt with preconceptions, and biased thinking....
IS there a point when you actually learn, instead of fitting what you read to your biases?

Well, congratulations.
Words can't even begin to find their way through the laughter.
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.....
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Congratulations P. You did in one post what you've accused others of for years.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
IOW Heli's son was Jesus' biological father unless it can be proved otherwise (Luke 3:23). And it's your choice if you don't believe what the bible actually says and just make up your own fantasies.
No need to make fantasies....
You're doing a bang up job yourself.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
You are indeed entitled to your opinions.
I'm sure glad I never paid attention to your ideologies. We'd still be back in the inquisition. Although, as I understand it, a new inquisition is coming, and it'll be the atheists who head it up.



I do have to say though, it'll be interesting to watch atheists stumble all over themselves to fight against themselves, in their support of freedom, and liberty for everyone except those whom they despise.
Still haven't worked out what atheism is, huh?
 
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