What is the difference in meaning…

Sketo said:
Actually God word states:

Proverbs 16:4 - "The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble."

It's only by Grace given to you, before the foundation of the world, if your purpose included being saved.
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The context is for those still wicked by the time of the day of trouble that are purposed for it. Because two verses down they are encouraged to depart from evil so they won't get the day of trouble. So people aren't unconditionally predeteminately purposed for hell.

Proverbs 16:4 (KJV) The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even **the wicked for the day of evil**.

Proverbs 16:6 (KJV) By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and ...
by the fear of the LORD **men depart from evil**.
 
Sketo said:
Actually God word states:

Proverbs 16:4 - "The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble."

It's only by Grace given to you, before the foundation of the world, if your purpose included being saved.

...
Click to expand...

"The LORD has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble."​

It does not say He intended and created everything to be that way for His purpose. God is not the author of sin.

Instead... It says that he made everything work for His purpose.

Another translation renders it as follows...


The Lord works out everything to its proper end—
even the wicked for a day of disaster.​

Like Pharaoh was used for his purpose.. The Lord used Pharaoh to have his name known throughout the known world.

God took what he knew would end up being what it would be, and *made* it all work for His purpose.


"And we know that God works all things together for the good of
those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose."

Romans 8:28​
 
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Kampioen said:
The context is for those still wicked by the time of the day of trouble that are purposed for it. Because two verses down they are encouraged to depart from evil so they won't get the day of trouble. So people aren't unconditionally predeteminately purposed for hell.

Proverbs 16:4 (KJV) The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even **the wicked for the day of evil**.

Proverbs 16:6 (KJV) By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and ...
by the fear of the LORD **men depart from evil**.
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Seems you are getting converted to not being.

Been there .......

If I may suggest ...... don't.
 
Chalcedon said:
Tulip makes no sense since it’s nonsense .
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Don't go there. That only builds up a wall.

Instead.. Take each point and show those that are valid, to be valid. And, you better be ready to show how the invalid points are not correct, and what is correct.

"No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval."

1 Corinthians 11:19​
 
GeneZ said:
Don't go there. That only builds up a wall.

Instead.. Take each point and show those that are valid, to be valid. And, you better be ready to show how the invalid points are not correct, and what is correct.

"No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval."

1 Corinthians 11:19​
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I do that in the threads I start and good advice :)
 
Alexander the adequate said:
when you talk about David not being chosen in Christ, if David is not in Christ and Christ in him, then David cannot be in God's presence now.
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Not so..... David was one of God's Chosen Jews. Not chosen in Christ. Jews were promised a home on the new earth.

In contrast to the Jews.. The Church was chosen as the Bride of Christ. The Church will have its home in Heaven, not on the new earth like the Jews.

It would be good for us all to learn the differences. It would help us to better to understand God's plan for eternity.
 
GeneZ said:
"The LORD has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble."​

It does not say He intended and created everything to be that way for His purpose.
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Of course not. I agree It does not say everything has the same purpose.
It says “The LORD has made everything for its purpose”. Each thing was intended to play its individual part in God’s overall plan.

Pharaoh is a perfect example of “even the wicked for the day of trouble."

“For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”” (Rom 9:17)

How did God accomplish the specific “purpose” Pharaoh was “made for”?

Answer: God hardened his heart through Storyline Level means.

GeneZ said:
God is not the author of sin.
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But God is the Author of the occurrence of sin in his story.

The difference you are tripping over is God is the Transcendent Author of the Storyline that includes the occurrence of creatures sinful actions.

God is not on the Storyline Level Authoring sinful actions of others directly.

GeneZ said:
Instead... It says that he made everything work for His purpose.
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Exactly, God is the Transcendent Author of how everything works on the Storyline Level.

GeneZ said:
Another translation renders it as follows...


The Lord works out everything to its proper end—
even the wicked for a day of disaster.​

Like Pharaoh was used for his purpose.. The Lord used Pharaoh to have his name known throughout the known world.
Click to expand...

This is error for scripture clearly states he “hardened Pharaoh’s heart so that he will not”. This is an intentional predetermined act of God, not a passive reaction of God to something he learned.

GeneZ said:
God took what he knew would end up being what it would be, and *made* it all work for His purpose.
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This is error for it Grounds God’s knowledge in something after creation…therefore you have God reacting to something he learned.

Yet scripture has God taking a predetermined action when it states clearly “I will harden his heart so that he will not”.

God’s willing precedes Pharaoh’s willing… God’s will is not reacting to what he learned about Pharaoh’s will.

GeneZ said:
"And we know that God works all things together for the good of
those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose."

Romans 8:28​
Click to expand...

And we know this is not referring to The wicked, LORD has made for the day of trouble."

Romans 8:28 is specifically referring to those whose purpose included “loving him” and included being “called according to that purpose.”

…
 
It only gets off the rails when the non-Calvinist misrepresents Calvinism by twisting the biblical T.U.L.I.P into... L.U.L.I.P. or F.U.L.I.P.

The U.L.I.P only makes sense when you start with the proper understanding of Romans 5:19:

"For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners"

GeneZ said:
Let's work with just one instead of being all over the place.
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I have no problem starting with just one, but I would prefer the proper Calvinism category of T.U.L.I.P and not one of the other non-Calvinist misrepresentations mentioned above.

GeneZ said:
The... "P" Perseverance of the Saints?

Please, you tell us the meaning of the "P"?
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If you want to start with any of the other 4, such as U.L.I. or P. then I must ask you to assume the T is true only for the sake of the conversation.

If you can’t assume the T when starting somewhere other than the T then I believe we will be comparing two different categories.

GeneZ said:
I believe Calvin did not understand the passage that states ... "But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved." Matthew 24:13
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I believe you come to this conclusion because you and Calvin are viewing this text from two different starting points. You are looking at this verse through your understanding of “F.U.L.I.P” where Calvin is looking at it from his understanding “T.U.L.I.P.”.

So which lens are you looking through? The non-Calvinist lens of F.U.L.I.P. or the Calvinist lens of T.L.U.I.P. when you say “Calvin did not understand”?

GeneZ said:
Let us have an honest discourse on this. Leave your holster at the door.
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Im happy to have an honest discourse with you, but we must first decide weather we are both able to honestly (for the sake of conversation) start in the same Category or if we are going to be having a discussion assuming different starting letters.

This will decide which “one” letter we should start with so that the discussion does not end up “being all over the place” as you stated above.

So would you like to honestly discuss the U.L.I.P in light of the T of Calvinism or would you like to honestly discuss the U.L.I.P. in light of the F of the non-Calvinist misrepresentation of Calvinism?

…
 
Sketo said:
Of course not. I agree It does not say everything has the same purpose.
It says “The LORD has made everything for its purpose”. Each thing was intended to play its individual part in God’s overall plan.

Pharaoh is a perfect example of “even the wicked for the day of trouble."

“For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”” (Rom 9:17)

How did God accomplish the specific “purpose” Pharaoh was “made for”?

Answer: God hardened his heart through Storyline Level means.



But God is the Author of the occurrence of sin in his story.

The difference you are tripping over is God is the Transcendent Author of the Storyline that includes the occurrence of creatures sinful actions.

God is not on the Storyline Level Authoring sinful actions of others directly.



Exactly, God is the Transcendent Author of how everything works on the Storyline Level.



This is error for scripture clearly states he “hardened Pharaoh’s heart so that he will not”. This is an intentional predetermined act of God, not a passive reaction of God to something he learned.



This is error for it Grounds God’s knowledge in something after creation…therefore you have God reacting to something he learned.

Yet scripture has God taking a predetermined action when it states clearly “I will harden his heart so that he will not”.

God’s willing precedes Pharaoh’s willing… God’s will is not reacting to what he learned about Pharaoh’s will.



And we know this is not referring to The wicked, LORD has made for the day of trouble."

Romans 8:28 is specifically referring to those whose purpose included “loving him” and included being “called according to that purpose.”

…
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God ascertained in His omniscience how each one would determine for themselves what they would accept and believe. Then He planned how to make use of each one for His purpose.

God does not waste in His economy. He will at present make use of those whom He knows will reject Him either doctrinally, or eternally. Making uses for His purpose in getting us dull ones in line to get us to see and understand what we would not have understood unless we were challenged and opposed. That includes you.
 
Sketo said:
So would you like to honestly discuss the U.L.I.P in light of the T of Calvinism or would you like to honestly discuss the U.L.I.P. in light of the F of the non-Calvinist misrepresentation of Calvinism?
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Calvinism is not 100% truth. You appear to equate Calvinism with 100% Truth. I am here to expose (and possibly embarrass you) because of your pride. That is when discussions become profitable, and not simply a guarded process as to be protecting the guilty as you wish it to be.


"Do not reprove a mocker or he will hate you;
reprove a wise man, and he will love you."

Prov 9:8

​

Now... it may be what someone promotes that mocks God's integrity. And, the one promoting it becomes a part of the mockery.


I want to discuss the "P." The perseverance of the saints. For it is used by some to determine that believers can lose their salvation, or that they were never saved to begin with. Its based upon a lack of understanding about Jesus was speaking about when He said...


And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake.
But he who endures to the end shall be saved."

Mark 13:13

"But he who endures to the end shall be saved."

Mat 24:13

"Everyone will hate you because of me, but
the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

Mark 13:13​
 
GeneZ said:
Let us have an honest discourse on this. Leave your holster at the door.
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And to think I really believed you wanted to have an honest discourse on the topic of T.U.L.I.P. but then you pulled out your guns…

GeneZ said:
Calvinism is not 100% truth. You appear to equate Calvinism with 100% Truth. I am here to expose (and possibly embarrass you) because of your pride. That is when discussions become profitable, and not simply a guarded process as to be protecting the guilty as you wish it to be.
Click to expand...

Well at least you are honest about your intentions… but not really honestly having a discourse on T.U.L.I.P.

…
 
Theo1689 said:
So you spent "over 4 decades" believing nonsense?
Sounds like you're not a very reliable "teacher".
Just sayin'...
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How can he even be trusted in his understanding since he was influenced by Calvin at some time in the past? How can anyone, on his side, be 100% sure that a part of his “calvinism” is not still influencing his posts today?

I mean Isn’t this the same tactic they use against Calvin, or Augustine himself?

??‍♂️Double standards I guess.
 
GeneZ said:
Calvinism is not 100% truth. You appear to equate Calvinism with 100% Truth. I am here to expose (and possibly embarrass you) because of your pride. That is when discussions become profitable, and not simply a guarded process as to be protecting the guilty as you wish it to be.


"Do not reprove a mocker or he will hate you;
reprove a wise man, and he will love you."

Prov 9:8

​

Now... it may be what someone promotes that mocks God's integrity. And, the one promoting it becomes a part of the mockery.


I want to discuss the "P." The perseverance of the saints. For it is used by some to determine that believers can lose their salvation, or that they were never saved to begin with. Its based upon a lack of understanding about Jesus was speaking about when He said...


And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake.
But he who endures to the end shall be saved."

Mark 13:13

"But he who endures to the end shall be saved."

Mat 24:13

"Everyone will hate you because of me, but
the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

Mark 13:13​
Click to expand...
It’s not any % true
 
Sketo said:
What do you mean by “God ascertained…”

How is this not Grounding his knowledge in something he learned from?

…
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The problem with sorting out what God "knows'... and learned? God learns nothing. The humanity of Christ learned.
The key to free will and creation resides in the factor that the Son has two distinct natures in union.

And? In the Incarnation the Son revealed that if he chooses to? He can deny Himself His right to be privy to all His Deity is always knowing.

That 'factor' of the humanity of Christ holds the key to understanding how God could create all men and at the same time have man have free will.
 
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Sketo said:
And to think I really believed you wanted to have an honest discourse on the topic of T.U.L.I.P. but then you pulled out your guns…



Well at least you are honest about your intentions… but not really honestly having a discourse on T.U.L.I.P.

…
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You don't know that.....
 
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